0 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:30,000 This subtitle is not finished yet. If you are able to, please support us and watch the talk in amara for the last changes: https://c3subtitles.de/talk/2071 Thanks! 1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:08,371 *rc3 preroll music* 2 00:00:08,371 --> 00:00:13,120 Herald: Welcome back on the Chaos-Sound stage. I hope you had a great day so far. 3 00:00:13,120 --> 00:00:22,600 And after the Algorave talk, we are happy to we're happy to host a talk by Andy 4 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:30,800 Mueller-Maguhn. He is a long-time member of the CCC. Now he is at Wau Holland 5 00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:37,520 Stiftung, and he's also a data journalist. And today he will tell us a bit about 6 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:47,440 things between WikiLeaks and the CIA. And this talk is some kind of successor for 7 00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:58,000 talks he gave previously. And but for all the details, he will tell them by himself. 8 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:08,720 And yes, welcome Andy. And we're happy to see what you can tell us. And all the 9 00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:13,050 interesting details that are in your talk. 10 00:01:13,050 --> 00:01:20,480 Andy: Thank you. OK. Good evening. So, I named this talk "When WikiLeaks bumped 11 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:27,600 into the CIA operation Kudo exposed". So, explain a bit later what that is. Just as 12 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:36,000 a reminder, the hacker community and the CCC, even in its bylaws, one of the core 13 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:41,040 things has always been information wants to be free. First sentence up the hacker 14 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:48,160 ethics brought a small snippet from Wau himself where you will not hear the sound 15 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:55,440 at this moment due to technical reasons, but where he talked about the hacking of 16 00:01:55,440 --> 00:02:03,520 society through Freedom of Information. My talk will have two parts, what happened so 17 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:11,120 far and what should be done now. In the first part. I just want to refer a little 18 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:16,560 bit on the context of what I'm talking about. So, this is about what happened 19 00:02:16,560 --> 00:02:23,920 surrounding WikiLeaks in the context of the CIA and the United States government. 20 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:31,600 Yeah, getting on them. I had two talks about similar topics already in 2018 and 21 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:36,720 2019 at the ..., you know, unfortunately also. No, that was still the last real 22 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:42,160 Congress. I talked about the technical aspects of the surveillance. And you will 23 00:02:42,160 --> 00:02:48,080 see one image that I needed to copy from that again. Then last year, I talked a 24 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:52,880 little bit about the CIA versus WikiLeaks to intimidation tactics. That was more 25 00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:58,800 what happened to me and other surrounding WikiLeaks. Now, in the meantime, this 26 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:03,520 year, end of September, came a very important article in this context on Yahoo 27 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:10,400 News, that seems to have been doing that. Some guys have been hired there, who 28 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:17,360 previously worked for Newsweek and others. The article, from 26 of September, is 29 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:23,040 called Kidnapping, Assassination at the London Shootout, inside the Secret CIA 30 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:29,760 Secret War Plans against WikiLeaks, and it did reveal quite some things. It finally 31 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:35,760 referred to my talk. It links even to the video of my talk. It takes some quotes 32 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:42,960 from it. It confirms a lot of it and adds a lot. But it also frames and was framing. 33 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:51,200 I mean, there is some disinformation that's poisoning that otherwise very 34 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:56,320 helpful article to understand what the fuck was going on. So, what I'm trying to 35 00:03:56,320 --> 00:04:02,560 do today is to reconstruct the whole thing a little bit to reframe it and help 36 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:07,840 everybody to understand a little bit what happened here. The Yahoo article 37 00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:15,040 rightfully distinguishes the timeframe of the interaction, so to say, between the 38 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:21,920 United States government and WikiLeaks into four to five timeframes. One of them 39 00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:27,680 at the beginning of the WikiLeaks project. Or, let's say, before Snowden, so before 40 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:36,320 mid-2013, the Obama administration authored the diplomatic cables had been 41 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:42,800 published by WikiLeaks, Afghan / Iraq War Logs and so on were out. They had the view 42 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:48,240 that as long as some entity or some people are publishing, are engaging and 43 00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:53,600 publishing it in journalistic activity, there's nothing they can do because First 44 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:57,840 Amendment of the United States Constitution talks about the freedom of 45 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:06,480 publishing the freedom of speech, and a freedom that does include journalistic 46 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:17,600 activity of all kinds. After the Snowden, not revelations, but the fact that Edward 47 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:26,080 Snowden was getting from Hong Kong on the way to somewhere else, but he got to 48 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:34,240 Moscow with the help of a WikiLeaks editorial member, therefore in acting in 49 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:40,320 what you could call journalistic source protection. However, that brought the U.S. 50 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:44,720 government to a slightly different view of WikiLeaks. It didn't really like it, so 51 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:50,400 Obama allowed the intelligence community to prioritize collection WikiLeaks, search 52 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:55,120 warrants, subpeonas, US National Security Letters. So here we're not talking about, 53 00:05:55,920 --> 00:06:00,720 as far as the article mentions, about the legal investigation yet. This intelligence 54 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:06,880 work to, like they allowed them to get on them? They also, in the context of the 55 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:11,600 Snowden revelations, now, where it wasn't WikiLeaks, it was Glenn Greenwald and 56 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:18,160 Laura Poitras who had been given by Edward Snowden the material, and they published 57 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:24,160 the material together with Guardian, Der Spiegel, the others. I was also involved 58 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:30,640 with the Spiegel I should disclose. However, they tried to relabel, not only 59 00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:37,440 WikiLeaks, but also Glenn, Laura and others from journalists away to like 60 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:43,920 information brokers. They tried all kinds of definitions to circumvent the 61 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:51,200 protection of the United States Constitution, you could say. That went not 62 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:56,960 that far. At least I have no actively knowledge of a criminal prosecution 63 00:06:57,840 --> 00:07:02,400 running against Laura and Glenn. However, there were for sure intelligence 64 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:07,280 activities that they also reported on that everybody who was involved in the 65 00:07:07,280 --> 00:07:13,040 publications, as you might know from history, the Guardian was later forced to 66 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:17,520 even destroy the computers where they had put this Snowden material and so on. So, 67 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:27,280 that was quite some things going on. In 2016, the next, yeah, like milestone in 68 00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:31,440 the change of the relations between the United States government, WikiLeaks, to 69 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:39,440 say it nicely, was the publication of the DNC emails that by the definition of the 70 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:48,560 National Security Agency, like they said, this was Guccifer 2.0 was the Russian 71 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:55,760 military intelligence at GRU and that the whole publication was with the intention 72 00:07:55,760 --> 00:08:03,200 to hurt the interests of the United States. This now is a first point where we 73 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:07,040 could sit back from our European perspective for a little bit and say, wait 74 00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:13,120 a moment. This was about leaking. I mean, this was leaked emails. Or, however, let's 75 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:19,360 say it was emails that somehow got leaked, obtained or otherwise, but in any way, 76 00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:25,920 WikiLeaks published them. What the discussion was about was how Hillary 77 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:32,800 Clinton had treated Bernie Sanders as the other candidate of the Democratic Party, 78 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:40,480 and here obviously did not make it. She made it. So, this we could call this 79 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:46,080 exposing the facts in the public interest. But as I said, the United States, at least 80 00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:51,680 National Security Agency and others seem to have agreed that this was not intended 81 00:08:51,680 --> 00:08:55,600 to harm the United States, not what Hillary Clinton did, but what WikiLeaks 82 00:08:55,600 --> 00:09:03,040 did in this publication. I think it's important that we distinguish between how 83 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:08,800 we evaluate these things and how the US government puts this into different 84 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:16,880 baskets or categories. However, then it got much more wild, when WikiLeaks started 85 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:23,520 at the beginning of 2017 to publish, with the so-called full seven series, documents 86 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:29,520 from the Central Intelligence Agency from the CIA. Mike Pompeo was in charge of it. 87 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:34,080 I did talk about this at length, and I want to repeat this last year, so he got 88 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:40,640 very upset personally because he was also potentially personal responsible for it. 89 00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:48,080 So, It was under his watch, so to say. However, the framing aspect of the article 90 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:56,960 are worth having a brief look. The what happened this year was so sad that the key 91 00:09:56,960 --> 00:10:04,240 witness of the prosecution Icelandic guy called Sigurdor Thordarson made it public 92 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:09,600 that actually he lied to the FBI and that they fabricated part of the evidence based 93 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:15,200 on his lies. Also, they could have verified things. He later even was 94 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:22,320 imprisoned for his multiple illegal acts, and the Icelandic government saw it as 95 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:27,520 reason enough to declare him a danger to society and therefore lock him up. And 96 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:32,960 that's not happening that easily in a country like Iceland who normally people 97 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:39,760 are very calm and down to earth. However, the article came just after, a few weeks 98 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:47,760 after, the publications on this fabricated evidence. And it's fair to say that the 99 00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:55,040 gravity of the Yahoo article was a lot higher and a lot more was discussed than 100 00:10:55,040 --> 00:11:02,640 about the fake evidence of the key witness and so on. However, one other aspect that 101 00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:11,040 was in the Yahoo article was a thing that is, from my reading, and I've talked to 102 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:16,560 many people, there was no evidence for this whatsoever. The Yahoo article claimed 103 00:11:16,560 --> 00:11:22,240 that there was the Russian government also having like kind of officers in front of 104 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:29,520 the Ecuadorian embassy or in the immediate surrounding, preparing to help Julian to 105 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:33,840 evacuate him, so to say, from England to sneak him out, as the article says., 106 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:39,920 Russian intel preparing to sneak Assange out of the UK. And this is a little bit 107 00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:47,600 wild and it's double wild when you or when one looks at how the involvement of the 108 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:52,240 Russian government, how that upsets American people, the American media and so 109 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:58,080 on. This is such a polarized environment where the moment the Russian government is 110 00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:02,720 declared to be involved, it changes everything. What's happened really here 111 00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:09,040 with something different and that is that Julian had, in cooperation and in 112 00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:14,320 coordination with the Ecuadorian government, found a way to legally leave 113 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:20,960 the embassy and the United Kingdom by becoming first an Ecuadorian citizen, then 114 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:27,040 an Ecuadorian diplomat, and then in theory he would have been able to leave the UK 115 00:12:27,040 --> 00:12:32,080 because a diplomat on the way to a different working place has, under Vienna, 116 00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:39,920 diplomatic assurances, is immune from any kind of interference. However, the article 117 00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:47,840 does reveal some aspects of what happened. For example, the kidnapping plans, the 118 00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:53,600 assassination plans that the US government considered the CIA played through ways to 119 00:12:54,160 --> 00:13:00,240 kill him in the embassy, to poison him, to kidnap him from there. This kind of 120 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:05,440 extreme acts did not happen, and the article claims that, you know, justice 121 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:11,200 prevailed. White House lawyers had doubts. The National Security Council and the 122 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:19,600 heads of the Senate and House Intelligence Committees ensured that this wild ideas 123 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:24,480 because they were not compatible with the legal framework, not even with that of the 124 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:30,720 United States, that that did not happen. So, the article gives you kind of this 125 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:36,640 American song melody of, yeah, we had some wild things at the CIA going on, but you 126 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:41,680 know, we are a democracy and we stopped it. However, there were some actions that 127 00:13:41,680 --> 00:13:47,200 where, according to the article and the witnesses and lawyers I talked to, well 128 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:51,360 caught out, extensive spying on WikiLeaks associates dealing with electronic 129 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:58,080 devices. Then there were things there we could talk about, like the article claims 130 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:05,600 that, to what was also carried out, sowing discord among the group's members. So now, 131 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:11,920 if anyone of you is longer than a few weeks in a CCC- like hacker club or 132 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:17,120 working for a journalist organization or working in any other group. I mean, 133 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:21,920 according to my little experience, there's quite a fight-club atmosphere out there 134 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:26,640 for a while, and I'm personally, I wouldn't always be able to distinguish 135 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:31,840 between is this now a CIA operated, you know, group fight? Or It's just normal 136 00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:36,560 group dynamics. People don't like each other, people having disputes, people 137 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:42,640 having different ideas how to do things and so on. So, I would suggest you take 138 00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:49,120 this kind of claim with a grain of salt. Not every dispute among a group has been 139 00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:55,521 created by the CIA. Also, I'm very generous on bashing them. However, they 140 00:14:55,521 --> 00:15:04,829 also talked at some point they changed the whole context of Julian and WikiLeaks from 141 00:15:04,829 --> 00:15:10,398 a target of collection to target of destruction. Well, for sure, some things 142 00:15:10,398 --> 00:15:17,760 happened there, but this is not what I can go into detail. So far, no detailed report 143 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:26,438 on it. However, the project I talked about that Julian would get legally out of the 144 00:15:26,438 --> 00:15:33,429 embassy as a member of Ecuadorian diplomatic staff is coming together in a 145 00:15:33,429 --> 00:15:40,147 very it's like the most critical time frame also, according to the article, and 146 00:15:40,147 --> 00:15:45,760 that we were able, that we were going through with the lawyers to log files of 147 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:51,104 the embassy security service, the videos and so on. So, we have been able to 148 00:15:51,104 --> 00:15:57,796 identify the timeframe and the timeframe is the 16th of December 2017 until the 149 00:15:57,796 --> 00:16:03,964 26th. This is the most critical timeframe, because, around the 16th, he was 150 00:16:03,964 --> 00:16:09,431 officially not only declared a diplomat, there was a publication in the Ecuadorean 151 00:16:09,431 --> 00:16:16,287 like a legal "judge set" or what it's called. So like the legal publication in 152 00:16:16,287 --> 00:16:22,070 Ecuador to have him declared. He had, around the 21st, the head of the 153 00:16:22,070 --> 00:16:27,847 Ecuadorian intelligence visiting him. So, that means he also had the diplomatic 154 00:16:27,847 --> 00:16:32,587 passport. It was fully, formally done. There was a discussion of the process and 155 00:16:32,587 --> 00:16:39,567 this meeting on the 21st I had mentioned it in my talk last year was the most high 156 00:16:39,567 --> 00:16:46,400 priority conversation that ever happened in the embassy, at least as far as we know 157 00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:52,350 from the witnesses of the security service who later revealed to the court that they 158 00:16:52,350 --> 00:16:57,440 had been, yeah, instructed on behalf of the CIA to do other things than to protect 159 00:16:57,440 --> 00:17:02,224 the embassy, but to spy on Julian. So this meeting on the 21st was extremely 160 00:17:02,224 --> 00:17:09,441 important to the Americans, and we do know roughly that the whole story ended through 161 00:17:09,441 --> 00:17:16,930 various means, but mainly to pressure on the on the Ecuadorian government in Quito, 162 00:17:16,930 --> 00:17:23,580 in Ecuador, around the 26th when they actually called the plan off because the 163 00:17:23,580 --> 00:17:28,884 Americans knew about every detail, including how he would get out of the 164 00:17:28,884 --> 00:17:35,199 embassy, in what type of car and so on. And they also then at some point denounced 165 00:17:35,199 --> 00:17:43,428 his diplomatic status after pressure from the United States government. And in this 166 00:17:43,428 --> 00:17:50,953 time frame, I make here a little bit of an event matrix, which is completely 167 00:17:50,953 --> 00:17:56,834 incomplete. I have to say this many things missing for legal, for other reasons. You 168 00:17:56,834 --> 00:18:01,462 know, some things are just too wild. The U.S. government, for example, would never 169 00:18:01,462 --> 00:18:05,697 break into a European law office, right? We can. That's bullshit. That's conspiracy 170 00:18:05,697 --> 00:18:11,590 stuff. They don't do these things. They, of course, comply with the law. However, 171 00:18:11,590 --> 00:18:18,884 we have some events that are funny and fit well into our picture, for example, that 172 00:18:18,884 --> 00:18:24,934 after on the Saturday, the lawyers from Spain and England were sitting together 173 00:18:24,934 --> 00:18:29,737 with Julian that two days later, in preparation of that meeting on the 21st 174 00:18:29,737 --> 00:18:35,291 came the fire protection service into the embassy. And those who seen my talk last 175 00:18:35,291 --> 00:18:40,467 year know that one of the fire extinguishers placed in the meeting room 176 00:18:40,467 --> 00:18:47,211 had the main role for holding a bug. However, I'm coming to that than we have 177 00:18:47,211 --> 00:18:54,880 this observation that every day in this time frame, there was a silver gray Ford 178 00:18:54,880 --> 00:19:02,587 car with sometimes two, sometimes three, sometimes more people sitting outside the 179 00:19:02,587 --> 00:19:09,399 embassy, seeming obviously to wait for instructions. Something to happen. I'm 180 00:19:09,399 --> 00:19:16,391 coming to that and we have other things going on at that timeframe, that kind of 181 00:19:16,391 --> 00:19:23,069 fit into the frame. So on the, ... I selected three events to talk about them a 182 00:19:23,069 --> 00:19:28,290 few minutes. The first is this fire extinguisher. 19:26 Here you see it and in 183 00:19:28,290 --> 00:19:32,929 on the right picture, you're seeing the black bottom of the fire extinguisher. 184 00:19:32,929 --> 00:19:37,894 That's where they had a magnetic little box with an audio microphone, I mean, 185 00:19:37,894 --> 00:19:44,356 audio bug in it, that seemed to have not only recorded, but also transmits the 186 00:19:44,356 --> 00:19:52,751 conversations, in life, to the American intelligence outside. Funnily, this, ... 187 00:19:52,751 --> 00:20:01,360 on the 18th comes a company, not even from London, the Iceland Fire Protection 188 00:20:01,360 --> 00:20:07,458 Limited, a guy and goes into all the rooms in the embassy to check the fire 189 00:20:07,458 --> 00:20:13,032 extinguishers. Now, according to the lawyers, there had been intensive 190 00:20:13,032 --> 00:20:19,593 discussions with the employees, and David Morales, the owner of U.C. Global, the 191 00:20:19,593 --> 00:20:24,844 company that was originally hired to protect the embassy, is known to have 192 00:20:24,844 --> 00:20:29,704 talked to his people and emailed them, mentioning that the Americans want also 193 00:20:29,704 --> 00:20:36,117 that all the other rooms at some point to be bugged and want access to the fire 194 00:20:36,117 --> 00:20:41,858 extinguishers. We don't know exactly what happened in that discussion to the last 195 00:20:41,858 --> 00:20:49,280 detail, but we know that on the 18th came this British company. And this is a little 196 00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:55,200 bit crass, and I think there will be many other embassies of other countries who 197 00:20:55,200 --> 00:21:00,320 will be interested to check if they don't are maybe serviced by the same company. 198 00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:10,320 Now, the other nice event that I selected is the night from the 23rd to the 24th. 199 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:17,440 So, the very morning, early morning hours on the 24th of December morning, Christmas 200 00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:24,080 morning, so to say, where you have the three guys sitting in the car and on the 201 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:28,800 back seat on the right side, someone reads the briefing notes, I will show you the, 202 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:36,480 oops. Don't tell me this. Hopefully it works. OK, great. The video doesn't work. 203 00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:44,720 I'm sorry. I can't show you the video today. Maybe courtesy of the CIA, however. 204 00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:50,160 So, the guy in the back seat browses through the briefing notes, and we have 205 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:58,400 been able to at least read part of what they have been, ... what this briefing 206 00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:04,640 notes say. It says this page that we have been able to read mostly was in the event 207 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:10,240 of loss of camera coverage. So, there was a process to be established when the 208 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:14,800 surveillance cameras in the embassy wouldn't deliver pictures anymore and the 209 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:19,840 guys outside a sitting partly, according to the article, the British police guys 210 00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:27,120 with guns, eight people, maybe without guns, would be ready to jump into the 211 00:22:27,120 --> 00:22:33,600 scene. Crash diplomatic cars, shoot into tires of cars that would try to bring 212 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:40,000 Julian away, and so on, indicates which way he would walk out. And so there's a 213 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:45,520 few key words here that I just want to emphasize in the event of lots of camera 214 00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:50,560 coverage standards, then there is talking about something called GS7 that might be 215 00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:56,160 code-word for CIA or something different. MET is clearly the Metropolitan Police. 216 00:22:57,120 --> 00:23:02,720 That's a normal acronym in England, and they talk about the context of the 217 00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:09,840 operation Kudo. So we looked up the word Kudo. Kudo is something saying roughly 218 00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:18,080 like friendship. So, we have to assume this was a joint British American 219 00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:23,280 operation, and that's exactly what the Yahoo article describes. However, what it 220 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:29,920 does not describe is the legal implication, because this could well be 221 00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:35,840 one of the most or best well documented breaches of the Vienna Convention, 222 00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:43,440 basically saying that the premises of the mission shall be inviolable, which is, 223 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:48,960 normally means that you shall not bug, you shall not, you know, put surveillance 224 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:53,280 devices, cameras, hidden cameras or whatever. You shall not hack into the 225 00:23:53,280 --> 00:24:00,400 camera surveillance system, of an embassy, asked to host state and so on and so that 226 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:04,800 intelligence do it and that the CIA was doing it. In the case of the Ecuadorian 227 00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:10,240 embassy, it's already part of a Spanish lawsuit. However, the dimension is a 228 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:14,720 little bit different, as the British police seems to have access have had 229 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:20,320 access to that video surveillance, and that is potentially legally different 230 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:26,640 thing. That will be subject to some legal steps going on in the next weeks and 231 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:37,040 months. The third event I selected for relaxation issues is on the last day. You 232 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:42,400 see here two police officers carrying an astonishing amount of eight cups of coffee 233 00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:51,600 for a relatively small police car. That gives you an idea what was going on there. 234 00:24:51,600 --> 00:25:00,000 The British police being prepared to set aside the conference room is about in the 235 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:06,960 area where there was a trash bag on the left side is so giving you an idea of how 236 00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:13,760 intense the British police was also on the scene outside. So, what is currently 237 00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:19,600 happening with this and a lot of other material? Is, well, checking the violation 238 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:28,080 of the Vienna Convention then parsing together many of the events and observing 239 00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:33,840 patterns and trying to see those patterns at other places. As we, of course, still 240 00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:37,520 do not know the full scope of the operations of the CIA and other 241 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:43,360 intelligence agencies against WikiLeaks. This is just the tip of the iceberg, what 242 00:25:43,360 --> 00:25:50,000 happened in London, but also to see where other journalists were other citizens, 243 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:54,960 where other governments, organizations, whatever were may be targeted with same or 244 00:25:54,960 --> 00:26:02,400 similar ways and methods. So this brings me to the second part of my little talk. 245 00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:10,065 The question what needs to be done? So, and I tried to first invite you to a 246 00:26:10,065 --> 00:26:18,277 little reflection because, as some of you might know, Julian Assange presented the 247 00:26:18,277 --> 00:26:25,342 WikiLeaks project in the CCC Congress, end of 2009. If I recall correctly, he made 248 00:26:25,342 --> 00:26:32,080 another talk in 2010. This was very much a project of the hacker community and it was 249 00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:37,288 highly welcomed at the time because it was like combining the idea of Freedom of 250 00:26:37,288 --> 00:26:42,040 Information, which had always been and sharing information which had always been 251 00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:48,555 the spirit of the hacker scene with those of journalists and democratic, yeah, think 252 00:26:48,555 --> 00:26:54,729 tanks to ensure that we would have actually an informed society, not just 253 00:26:54,729 --> 00:27:00,257 this very weird concept of an information society which does not really say anything 254 00:27:00,257 --> 00:27:05,080 between the relationship between information and society. But an informed 255 00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:10,000 society is a clear picture, I think. And therefore, the better wording. So, the 256 00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:14,370 other question is, of course, is what? What does this whole thing? This what we 257 00:27:14,370 --> 00:27:20,601 have been reading in the article and what we're now a step by step here revealing 258 00:27:20,601 --> 00:27:26,297 and starting to understand. What does it tell us about the United States 259 00:27:26,297 --> 00:27:34,132 government's prosecution, of DOJ, Pompeo, the CIA, all these people? How (competent) 260 00:27:34,132 --> 00:27:41,768 are they really to decide to society that is based on an informed electorate, like 261 00:27:41,768 --> 00:27:48,084 the people making decisions based on knowledge and voting based on knowing 262 00:27:48,084 --> 00:27:54,127 what's going on? And that's slightly disturbing, I think what we what this 263 00:27:54,127 --> 00:28:01,772 thought brings us to. So, here's my little ideas, and then I will just come with some 264 00:28:01,772 --> 00:28:09,159 questions to the audience. So, yeah, what can we do and what maybe should we do? 265 00:28:09,159 --> 00:28:14,345 This is, here, just some ideas of mine. While we could, of course, hope that the 266 00:28:14,345 --> 00:28:19,551 United States, the people of the United States, the government of the United 267 00:28:19,551 --> 00:28:25,840 States would understand that core democratic value was attacked here when 268 00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:34,194 going against Assange, WikiLeaks and so on. So in theory, we should, we could hope 269 00:28:34,194 --> 00:28:41,664 that the self-healing or the self understanding and mechanisms of the United 270 00:28:41,664 --> 00:28:47,480 States society will stop this madness because they will see, Hey, wait a moment, 271 00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:53,834 this is our constitutional First Amendment that we are attacking here indirectly. And 272 00:28:53,834 --> 00:28:59,711 if we don't have like the publishers, right, journalists and publishers right to 273 00:28:59,711 --> 00:29:06,632 inform the public, then we have nothing. Well, the second, obviously, level would 274 00:29:06,632 --> 00:29:15,520 be to dissolve the CIA. Yeah, I mean, Kennedy had this idea before, shatter it 275 00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:23,336 and the wind and so on. But I don't know how at least this shall continue with that 276 00:29:23,336 --> 00:29:30,553 budget, with the information operations, with the influence operations, where 277 00:29:30,553 --> 00:29:37,480 actually "wag the dog" is just a tiny little aspect of it. Because the question 278 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:43,368 is how shall a democratic government work as long as there's an intelligence agency 279 00:29:43,368 --> 00:29:48,420 that has all the knowledge about every person involved in all the little 280 00:29:48,420 --> 00:29:54,454 compromat boxes and the aspect of how to nudge and how to influence and how to 281 00:29:54,454 --> 00:30:00,091 manipulate and so on? Well, and then the third aspect outside the United States, 282 00:30:00,091 --> 00:30:05,775 here in Europe, is of course, the question of how can we immunize those people, 283 00:30:05,775 --> 00:30:11,194 entities governmental organization and so on where it still seems possible to 284 00:30:11,194 --> 00:30:17,208 understand that this is core, that journalism and the right to inform the 285 00:30:17,208 --> 00:30:23,264 public by making also information and material public that governments, 286 00:30:23,264 --> 00:30:29,259 corporations or whoever would like to keep secret? But if that documents are playing 287 00:30:29,259 --> 00:30:35,238 a role in informing the public in the public interest and it must be allowed to 288 00:30:35,238 --> 00:30:42,476 make it public, and that was what's called the Fourth Estate or the right of the 289 00:30:42,476 --> 00:30:49,084 press to inform the public. Yeah, how can we do that? That of course, more a 290 00:30:49,084 --> 00:30:55,124 question. And and here's my list of questions that I will want to address to 291 00:30:55,124 --> 00:31:02,408 the audience. We should have 20 minutes and maybe a few seconds for a discussion 292 00:31:02,408 --> 00:31:10,153 of this. So guys, how do we get Assange out of jail? Ladies and gentlemen, how do 293 00:31:10,153 --> 00:31:15,120 we do it? How do we stop the criminalization of journalism and those 294 00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:20,246 who ensure access to information in the public? Is this in order to achieve an 295 00:31:20,246 --> 00:31:26,680 informed society? That's our duty I fear. How do we ensure a value driven community? 296 00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:34,051 So, as everybody knows, the CCC had always different factions. The political and the 297 00:31:34,051 --> 00:31:39,677 technical factions then came at some point a party, the event and hedonism aspects 298 00:31:39,677 --> 00:31:46,480 all together. And we had a great fun time. But I'm not sure that we also took care of 299 00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:52,646 ensuring that we are value driven community all the way. I mean, when we 300 00:31:52,646 --> 00:31:59,539 look at this year and the NSA methods that's obviously some kind of atmosphere 301 00:31:59,539 --> 00:32:05,347 between those who work in the I.T. security industry and those who maybe then 302 00:32:05,347 --> 00:32:10,488 take offers from the intelligence community. And that's not the spirit of 303 00:32:10,488 --> 00:32:16,560 the hacker ethics, and that's not just the spirit of the CCC, and that's not the 304 00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:23,640 spirit of an informed society that people with money who instrumentalized technology 305 00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:29,805 people and. You don't have to like look at the CIA as the most crass, may be entity. 306 00:32:29,805 --> 00:32:36,662 It starts with the so-called Open Technology Fund. I mean, we had various 307 00:32:36,662 --> 00:32:43,885 years the ability to observe how the Tor project had its issues between the two 308 00:32:43,885 --> 00:32:49,240 worlds of the US government having this and that ideas and our community having 309 00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:54,955 other ideas of how anonymization works. And I'm not sure we can say that our 310 00:32:54,955 --> 00:33:02,648 values have been preserved and we have ensured that OTF finance projects do not 311 00:33:02,648 --> 00:33:09,490 serve just some funny governmental interest. And when it was relabeled partly 312 00:33:09,490 --> 00:33:17,177 from internet freedom to circumvention measures that I think gave already some 313 00:33:17,177 --> 00:33:24,880 ideas on what could go wrong if, yeah, governments start to fund projects of the 314 00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:31,975 so-called hacker scene. Yeah, so, this is my questions to you guys. How do we get 315 00:33:31,975 --> 00:33:39,271 him out? How do we ensure our society stays intact and democratic? And how do 316 00:33:39,271 --> 00:33:47,087 we, as a scene, avoid to be corrupted by governmental money and funny interests? 317 00:33:47,087 --> 00:33:55,325 And I hope the moderation cannot take over and provide some answers from the 318 00:33:55,325 --> 00:33:58,784 audience. 319 00:33:58,784 --> 00:34:07,529 Herald: All right, thank you very much, Andy, for your talk. Let's see how this 320 00:34:07,529 --> 00:34:14,515 will work. Thank you, also, for your questions to the audience. 321 00:34:14,515 --> 00:34:21,980 Andy: I will try, in the meantime, to fix this video and make it this one minute, 23 322 00:34:21,980 --> 00:34:24,185 seconds video. Herald: All right. 323 00:34:24,185 --> 00:34:29,884 Andy: I can show it, but maybe you can start to take the questions. 324 00:34:29,884 --> 00:34:38,114 Herald: Sure, yeah, and yes, so let's say to the audience, please put your possible 325 00:34:38,114 --> 00:34:45,824 answers to Andy's questions in the chat. I will. I will follow them as good as I can. 326 00:34:45,824 --> 00:34:51,270 And so that we can have a lively discussion. I know it might be a little 327 00:34:51,270 --> 00:34:57,086 bit limited because in a presence Congress, it would be easier to interact 328 00:34:57,086 --> 00:35:06,340 with it with each other. And. But yeah, let's see that. And but first of all, 329 00:35:06,340 --> 00:35:17,618 maybe Andy, if you have the capacity for a question from the interwebs. Then the 330 00:35:17,618 --> 00:35:23,992 question would be, how did you obtain the pictures and camera footage from the 331 00:35:23,992 --> 00:35:30,055 embassy? Andy: Well, this has to do with a legal 332 00:35:30,055 --> 00:35:40,070 analysis of this material. I'm myself, by the way, you could switch on the video if 333 00:35:40,070 --> 00:35:46,814 you wanted. Well, I am myself accusing the Spanish company to have spied on me and 334 00:35:46,814 --> 00:35:52,336 other colleagues, and so I'm part of that legal proceedings. As as such, I'm also 335 00:35:52,336 --> 00:35:57,877 helping the lawyers to obtain the technical evidence. There was a shitload 336 00:35:57,877 --> 00:36:04,242 of digital evidence confiscated that needed forensic examination and so on. So 337 00:36:04,242 --> 00:36:10,356 this is material accessible to those who have been affected by the illegal 338 00:36:10,356 --> 00:36:14,908 activities performed by U.C. Global and others. 339 00:36:14,908 --> 00:36:25,840 Herald: All right. Then there's also the question of are there pictures of the four 340 00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:31,520 or the people inside it, but I think that's pretty much a part of the video you 341 00:36:32,240 --> 00:36:34,160 have just shown or is there something different? 342 00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:38,800 Andy: Is it? I'm sorry, I don't see what is being broadcasted. Do you have access 343 00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:45,880 to my sliding-to-the-streaming-laptop? Herald: OK, yeah. I guess that 344 00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:50,560 Andy: This is the full video where you can see the guys reading the briefing notes on 345 00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:55,920 the back seat. We have been able to zoom in at (unintelligible) and so on. 346 00:36:55,920 --> 00:37:01,680 Herald: And yeah, where the question was, where did you get it from? But I think you 347 00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:05,720 already answered that in the previous question, because ... 348 00:37:05,720 --> 00:37:09,741 Andy: That's no answer to my question. What should we shall do, guys? *laughing* 349 00:37:09,741 --> 00:37:16,880 Herald: Yeah. So, we have one line of feedback, for example, that, uh, how to 350 00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:22,800 get Julian Assange out of jail. One proposal is "ask our foreign minister, 351 00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:28,640 give Julian German citizenship", make it a "Chef-Sache". So, part of the part of the 352 00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:33,920 chancellor. Uh, that's what it means in German, in every German activities. 353 00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:39,680 Question mark? Would that work? Andy: Mm hmm. It's being worked on. I 354 00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:45,840 mean, the new we have a new foreign minister who is a woman from the Green 355 00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:54,720 Party, and she seems to be very much a fan of United States German relationship. I'm 356 00:37:54,720 --> 00:38:03,440 not sure how much she sees about a lack of values that the U.S. government represents 357 00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:10,000 watching the history of the U.S. Constitution and so on. But I'm sure there 358 00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:18,880 is a lot work to be done there, and the Green Party used to be also interested in 359 00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:26,480 a society and stand for human rights and so on. So I would say, yes, it's 360 00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:34,144 definitely it is a path to go. Herald: All right. There's also a 361 00:38:34,144 --> 00:38:50,818 question, are you so be you personally still under surveillance? Do you know? 362 00:38:50,818 --> 00:39:00,048 Andy: Well, I've taken some legal and technical measures, and the German 363 00:39:00,048 --> 00:39:10,198 authorities have some evidence I provided to them still in their analytical labs and 364 00:39:10,198 --> 00:39:19,118 so on. It's a little bit unrealistic to assume that the Americans would not 365 00:39:19,118 --> 00:39:25,511 continue watching those who surrounded Assange and WikiLeaks it as a member of 366 00:39:25,511 --> 00:39:31,424 the Wau Holland foundation, and we finance the, ... we financed many of the 367 00:39:31,424 --> 00:39:37,280 publications and things or aspects of the publication. So, it would be unlikely that 368 00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:42,924 the US lost interest. But at least for the moment, they seem to behave a little bit 369 00:39:42,924 --> 00:39:50,400 more, especially after the Yahoo article. I think it became very obvious also to the 370 00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:57,520 German authorities what was going on. So the article was helpful. It's just that 371 00:39:57,520 --> 00:40:03,600 some aspects of the article are just pure rubbish and disinformation that try to 372 00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:10,800 smoothen it up a little bit. Herald: Mm hmm. All right. May I ask you 373 00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:20,153 to, maybe, just also bring up again the slides with your questions, so we will 374 00:40:20,153 --> 00:40:22,357 have to put Andy: Just a second. 375 00:40:22,357 --> 00:40:31,615 Herald: I think this will help to spark a bit of discussion also. 376 00:40:31,615 --> 00:40:48,955 Andy: Sure, good point. ...Seem to need to browse through. Here are the questions. 377 00:40:48,955 --> 00:40:57,454 Herald: All right, thank you. And, uh. Another answer to how to get him out of 378 00:40:57,454 --> 00:41:08,778 jail is "Keep talking about Julian Assange and the public attend vigils". I don't 379 00:41:08,778 --> 00:41:15,360 know what that means. Actually, uh, write articles, write comments. Call the 380 00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:21,625 Department of Justice, talk to politicians. Communicate." So this is this 381 00:41:21,625 --> 00:41:24,816 is one answer. Like, like keep, keep the word out. 382 00:41:24,816 --> 00:41:29,920 Andy: Yeah. I mean, let me briefly try to interact with whoever gave that 383 00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:38,560 suggestion. I think it's well known that in Germany, in France and some countries, 384 00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:42,800 there was quite some campaigns going on at the last months, quite some people on the 385 00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:51,120 street acting for Julian and a series of events and so on. Also, a little bit in 386 00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:57,200 England, but England seems to be a very tough under two aspects. The one is that 387 00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:02,960 they don't have that of a self understanding of a country with a 388 00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:07,600 constitution guaranteeing freedom rights, You know the United Kingdom does not have 389 00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:12,720 a constitution and it doesn't have what's called constitutional rights. It does have 390 00:42:12,720 --> 00:42:21,360 similar statements, but they are not as clearly defined and as a value system of a 391 00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:27,440 democratic society. So, most British people, if you ask them to do something 392 00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:31,120 for freedom of press like the press, these assholes, what should I do something for 393 00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:35,680 them? It's all very complicated and a bit polarized over there. So but then the 394 00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:43,440 other aspect is that the UK government, to say it bluntly, there's quite some people 395 00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:48,640 who say that the UK government does what the US government says. And in this case, 396 00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:55,920 there is no way, according to that interpretation, that you can avoid the UK 397 00:42:55,920 --> 00:43:01,760 government handing Julian over to the Americans. So, the problem needs to be 398 00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:08,720 addressed in the US. And Germany and other European countries have a different 399 00:43:08,720 --> 00:43:14,640 history, obviously, and I'm at least sure that if Julian would be in Germany, I'm 400 00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:19,040 not sure he would be not having any issues, but there would be a different 401 00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:27,440 discussion. However, the question how the so-called old Europe or the continental 402 00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:33,200 Europe that is now even more ignored, after a bitter exit from the Brits, can 403 00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:37,600 have any influence here in England, I would say forget it on the US. It's more 404 00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:44,880 complicated. But for the moment, it seems that similar to what happened to Julian 405 00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:51,200 and WikiLeaks in our own community, that there was quite a time-frame when the 406 00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:56,960 reputation to character assassination had took on so much that actually he was seen 407 00:43:56,960 --> 00:44:05,440 as as a persona non grata more or less. The United States political atmosphere is 408 00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:12,480 even more complicated and more polarized between left, right and nuts, and whatever 409 00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:22,320 that, it seems a very tricky task to bring some sense into that discussion. As long 410 00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:29,040 as you have the military intelligence apparatus and Hillary Clinton saying, 411 00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:35,120 like, "hang him on the highest trees". So there seemed to be quite, and that's also 412 00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:41,840 mentioned in the Yahoo article, a revenge aspect of the United States legal system 413 00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:51,680 here. Not only Pompeo, that want to, yeah, basically, to kill Julian as a symbol that 414 00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:57,520 no one should ever try to reveal the dirty laundry of the United States. So yeah, 415 00:44:57,520 --> 00:45:04,720 this is a bit tricky and we will need more ideas and how to also initiate a better 416 00:45:04,720 --> 00:45:14,080 discussion in the United States, maybe. Herald: Mm hmm. Related to that. Another 417 00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:20,320 answer we got was, for example, of how to how to stop the criminalization of 418 00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:28,320 journalism. And maybe also other question of these questions is a vote for the right 419 00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:39,120 people. And uh, while it probably can help for some things, and what comes to my mind 420 00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:51,707 is, I mean, indeed, in this and also other prosecutions and trials, very often there 421 00:45:51,707 --> 00:46:00,240 are some, uh, some ancient laws involved on those grounds. People could get 422 00:46:00,240 --> 00:46:08,480 prosecuted, right? Isn't it, for Julian? There is. There is the Intelligence Act, 423 00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:11,760 or what's the name of...? Andy: It is called the "Espionage Act". So 424 00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:18,640 basically what the U.S. prosecution does is there's a so-called secret grand-jury 425 00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:25,440 that might have even more investigations running against Julian, and WikiLeaks than 426 00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:31,440 that what has been put into the extradition inquiry to the U.K. at this 427 00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:39,040 point. However, that one already accuses him to violating the Espionage Act, not 428 00:46:39,040 --> 00:46:45,440 declaring him having spied for another country, but funnily having revealed 429 00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:50,720 secrets to the American public and to the, of course, public of other countries. 430 00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:56,960 That's what they call espionage. That's a little bit ridiculous. And it is, however, 431 00:46:56,960 --> 00:47:04,640 even more of a concern watching the fact that a U.S. journalist would be able to 432 00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:10,080 claim the protection of the First Amendment, the right of freedom of speech 433 00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:14,880 and the right of publishers and journalists and so on. However, they deny 434 00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:21,473 that because he's not a U.S. citizen. So the US partially exports their laws and 435 00:47:21,473 --> 00:47:27,819 says, Well, you violate that against this American law called the Espionage Act, but 436 00:47:27,819 --> 00:47:33,637 they do not grant him the protection of the U.S. legal system. And that is, to 437 00:47:33,637 --> 00:47:42,663 call it hypocrisy is, I'm sorry, is too nice. This is just really fucked up. 438 00:47:42,663 --> 00:47:58,400 Herald: Mm-Hmm. OK. Shouldn't, try to get rid of, maybe like, the Espionage Act or 439 00:47:58,400 --> 00:48:02,475 or at least... Andy: I am all for it. Dissolve the CIA, 440 00:48:02,475 --> 00:48:08,183 get rid of the Espionage Act. I'm all for it. I just fear that at least part of our 441 00:48:08,183 --> 00:48:14,480 community will have to become, I don't know, lawyers, lobbyists. Maybe we need to 442 00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:21,436 look for better communications with the US hacker scene and see if they can kindly 443 00:48:21,436 --> 00:48:27,025 get into political consciousness mode and get for a moment distracted from 444 00:48:27,025 --> 00:48:35,480 technology developments into society development and see what can be done to 445 00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:40,742 ensure that in the future, we have the right as a citizen to know what's 446 00:48:40,742 --> 00:48:44,026 happening in our name by government and so on. 447 00:48:44,026 --> 00:48:53,680 Herald: Mm hmm. All right. Yeah, because for example, I remember a couple of years 448 00:48:53,680 --> 00:49:00,960 ago, I don't know whether it was in the 2013, the year of Snowden or later where 449 00:49:00,960 --> 00:49:10,560 we also had a talk at Congress about the German post surveillance, for example, 450 00:49:10,560 --> 00:49:24,320 where back in the,... I think it was the seventies. Uh, where we had the "Nato 451 00:49:24,320 --> 00:49:32,040 Truppen-Statut", got into play. But there was a verbal note from the from the forum 452 00:49:32,040 --> 00:49:38,240 to the German government who told the allies, Well, we will be part of the "Nato 453 00:49:38,240 --> 00:49:45,280 Truppen-Statut" and all but don't be afraid you will be able to have these 454 00:49:45,280 --> 00:49:55,600 powers. And as before, under Allies law, you could say, and only after this, uh, 455 00:49:55,600 --> 00:50:01,120 the information the the investigative journalism of I think it was a historian. 456 00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:09,200 (...His toleration?...) Exactly. Mr (...Fischer-Bot...). But uh, only after 457 00:50:09,200 --> 00:50:16,960 that came out, uh, to government had to say, OK, well, we want to stop this. And 458 00:50:16,960 --> 00:50:24,400 now this at least officially is over. Andy: Well, I mean, it's not really over. 459 00:50:24,400 --> 00:50:29,600 Germany is still a member of NATO, and these regulations are still in place. And 460 00:50:29,600 --> 00:50:35,360 just to have it said, I mean it. The vault 7 revelations. If you look at the 461 00:50:35,360 --> 00:50:44,080 publications of WikiLeaks, you will see the modules the CIA had developed to make 462 00:50:44,080 --> 00:50:50,080 software, a Trojan, a malware, whatever kind of manipulations, to look like, it 463 00:50:50,080 --> 00:50:57,520 was coming from a specific country timezone. So to make a malware or attacks 464 00:50:57,520 --> 00:51:01,920 on it systems make them look like they come from Russia, China, Iran, you name 465 00:51:01,920 --> 00:51:09,200 it. North Korea issued a list as well. And this is the scenario we're looking at 466 00:51:09,200 --> 00:51:14,000 already. If you if you look at the news, what happened the last years, we had all 467 00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:19,120 these attacks, it was Russia, it was China, it was Iran, It was North Korea 468 00:51:19,120 --> 00:51:27,280 must probably have forgotten some other people who it was blamed on. But the 469 00:51:27,280 --> 00:51:35,520 discussion that the CIA would be having the tools to make attribution misleading 470 00:51:35,520 --> 00:51:41,200 to a country. So what's called a false flag operation in military terms is 471 00:51:41,200 --> 00:51:48,667 creating a scenario where exactly we as a NATO member are now looking into military- 472 00:51:48,667 --> 00:51:55,920 like conflicts again, because the media environment has been so poisoned with, "it 473 00:51:55,920 --> 00:52:01,360 was those guys and those guys hacking our I.T., our parliament, our, you name it". 474 00:52:02,160 --> 00:52:10,560 This worries me. It worries me that we as a technical community have not spent more 475 00:52:10,560 --> 00:52:16,160 attention to avoid the media environment was able to like, create again just 476 00:52:16,160 --> 00:52:23,200 paintings of enemies and create an atmosphere where war between countries 477 00:52:23,200 --> 00:52:29,280 seems possible again. And that's something that's deeply disturbing to me. And I 478 00:52:29,280 --> 00:52:34,160 think this is something we have to work on more as a community also to ensure that 479 00:52:34,800 --> 00:52:41,840 technical knowledge is not abused for like, yeah, political games by withholding 480 00:52:41,840 --> 00:52:47,360 information. Herald: Mm-Hmm. 481 00:52:47,360 --> 00:52:52,080 Andy: And what I should mention is, yes, we are only having about two minutes left 482 00:52:52,080 --> 00:53:00,000 here, something I didn't agree to be available for a little discussion and a 483 00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:06,640 whistleblower tent that's somewhere in that virtual world. And the audience will 484 00:53:06,640 --> 00:53:10,640 hopefully find it. Herald: All right. 485 00:53:10,640 --> 00:53:17,920 Andy: So then or whatever it's called. Herald: Uh, sorry, and once once again, 486 00:53:17,920 --> 00:53:19,104 what's the name of the of the whistle blowert tent.. 487 00:53:19,104 --> 00:53:26,000 Andy: Of the dog whistle blower village? Herald: Okay, all right. So go out to the 488 00:53:26,000 --> 00:53:35,040 whistleblowers tent. And so after after this talk. And so maybe one last question. 489 00:53:36,560 --> 00:53:41,360 Is it possible to sue the UK government for the treatment of Assange before the 490 00:53:41,360 --> 00:53:47,440 European Court of Human Rights? Andy: And it's a little complicated. 491 00:53:48,640 --> 00:53:56,320 What's happening right now is I don't think other talks have covering it is that 492 00:53:56,320 --> 00:54:03,680 Julian tries to avoid his extradition and there is specific aspects of this which he 493 00:54:03,680 --> 00:54:11,760 might at some point be able to address at the European Court of Human Rights. That, 494 00:54:11,760 --> 00:54:17,920 in theory, could stop his extradition, but only if specific criteria are met, met and 495 00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:25,280 so on. How much now the UK government will listen to it after the Brexit, and so one 496 00:54:25,280 --> 00:54:30,880 is its end due to political atmospheric reasons. That's a little tricky. The 497 00:54:30,880 --> 00:54:35,920 European Court of Human Rights is not part of the EU agreement, so it doesn't matter 498 00:54:35,920 --> 00:54:42,880 that the UK stepped out of the EU, but it is still an instrument of Europe and not 499 00:54:42,880 --> 00:54:52,960 of the friendship between the United States and Great Britain. So. The 500 00:54:52,960 --> 00:54:59,680 atmosphere of the British government does not suggest at this moment to be overly 501 00:54:59,680 --> 00:55:06,956 sensitive to anything coming from continental Europe to say it carefully. 502 00:55:06,956 --> 00:55:14,796 And that's pretty bad. All right, so, yeah. Thank you, Andy, for your for your 503 00:55:14,796 --> 00:55:21,240 talk. For everyone who's interested in to form a discussion with you, please go over 504 00:55:21,240 --> 00:55:27,072 to the whistleblower. Talk on this channel at cos it's on the stage. The next talk 505 00:55:27,072 --> 00:55:35,362 will be reproducible building network infrastructure by Astro, which will start 506 00:55:35,362 --> 00:55:45,219 at 9:30 p.m.. So tune in for the next course on a talk as well. And that's it 507 00:55:45,219 --> 00:55:50,950 for now. Thank you. 508 00:55:50,950 --> 00:55:53,259 *rc3 postroll music* 509 00:55:53,259 --> 00:56:00,305 Subtitles created by c3subtitles.de in the year 2022. Join, and help us!