0 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:30,000 Dear viewer, these subtitles were generated by a machine via the service Trint and therefore are (very) buggy. If you are capable, please help us to create good quality subtitles: https://c3subtitles.de/talk/596 Thanks! 1 00:00:10,210 --> 00:00:12,429 And now to our first talk in Hall 2 00:00:12,430 --> 00:00:14,589 one, it's titled, I Feel Like 3 00:00:14,590 --> 00:00:16,209 a Criminal and I have to be God at the 4 00:00:16,210 --> 00:00:17,379 same time. 5 00:00:17,380 --> 00:00:19,599 And it will be about how we as 6 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:20,489 a community. 7 00:00:20,490 --> 00:00:22,599 There's lots of talk at this 8 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:25,779 Congress about hacktivism, about hacking, 9 00:00:25,780 --> 00:00:27,249 but there's not a lot of introspection 10 00:00:27,250 --> 00:00:29,079 about what we want to be as a community 11 00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:31,419 and how how we think about ourselves. 12 00:00:31,420 --> 00:00:33,489 And now, Leonia, million 13 00:00:33,490 --> 00:00:35,179 tonnes is going to talk about that. 14 00:00:35,180 --> 00:00:36,520 Please welcome her to the stage. 15 00:00:43,050 --> 00:00:44,819 Hello, good morning. I'm very thankful 16 00:00:44,820 --> 00:00:46,529 for seeing so many people, despite the 17 00:00:46,530 --> 00:00:48,449 fact yesterday was a very it's the last 18 00:00:48,450 --> 00:00:50,069 day there was a toilet party, as I've 19 00:00:50,070 --> 00:00:50,999 heard. 20 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:52,799 So greatly appreciated that you came 21 00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:53,759 along. 22 00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:55,049 My name is a.. A dancer. 23 00:00:55,050 --> 00:00:56,999 I'm a PhD student in the School of 24 00:00:57,000 --> 00:00:58,649 Politics, International Study and 25 00:00:58,650 --> 00:01:01,079 Philosophy, a very long and dry name in 26 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:03,359 the Queen's University, Belfast. 27 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:04,919 And today is the introduction already 28 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:06,569 said. I'd like to give you a small 29 00:01:06,570 --> 00:01:08,609 insight into my interdisciplinary 30 00:01:08,610 --> 00:01:10,679 research project, which 31 00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:12,629 is looking at security issues around like 32 00:01:12,630 --> 00:01:14,879 hacking hacktivism, but like more 33 00:01:14,880 --> 00:01:16,829 around the issue of how different actors 34 00:01:16,830 --> 00:01:18,339 perceive hacking and hacktivism. 35 00:01:18,340 --> 00:01:19,829 So I'm looking at the policy level of the 36 00:01:19,830 --> 00:01:22,019 European Union, but also, for instance, 37 00:01:22,020 --> 00:01:24,149 at the cyber security sector, whatever 38 00:01:24,150 --> 00:01:25,739 that means. 39 00:01:25,740 --> 00:01:27,659 And like people who call themselves 40 00:01:27,660 --> 00:01:29,129 hackers and hacktivists and what they 41 00:01:29,130 --> 00:01:31,259 think, how they are portrayed 42 00:01:31,260 --> 00:01:33,009 and currently perceived. 43 00:01:33,010 --> 00:01:34,619 And I'd like and with the very 44 00:01:34,620 --> 00:01:35,879 controversial title, I feel like a 45 00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:37,619 criminal and I have to be got at the same 46 00:01:37,620 --> 00:01:39,509 time. It's not that I think I am, but 47 00:01:39,510 --> 00:01:40,949 like it was a quote by one of my 48 00:01:40,950 --> 00:01:42,539 participants. I'd like to give you a 49 00:01:42,540 --> 00:01:45,569 rough overview in the next 45 minutes on 50 00:01:45,570 --> 00:01:48,419 what I found in the course of my study 51 00:01:48,420 --> 00:01:50,309 and before everybody freaks out and says, 52 00:01:50,310 --> 00:01:51,989 oh, my God, it's a social scientist doing 53 00:01:51,990 --> 00:01:53,190 research on this community, 54 00:01:54,210 --> 00:01:56,549 I would like to give a brief 55 00:01:56,550 --> 00:01:57,629 kind of disclaimer. 56 00:01:57,630 --> 00:01:59,849 I'm aware I'm not like doing anything 57 00:01:59,850 --> 00:02:01,949 like cyber CSI, cyber 58 00:02:01,950 --> 00:02:03,629 crime related. I'm not like basically 59 00:02:03,630 --> 00:02:05,729 trying to 60 00:02:05,730 --> 00:02:07,829 bring people to jail or do kind 61 00:02:07,830 --> 00:02:10,258 of armchair psychology or 62 00:02:10,259 --> 00:02:12,419 imitate like this kind of 63 00:02:12,420 --> 00:02:15,269 well known 64 00:02:15,270 --> 00:02:17,009 series. And also very important. 65 00:02:17,010 --> 00:02:19,649 I'm not funded by the JQ because 66 00:02:19,650 --> 00:02:21,089 I'm from Belfast and everybody assumes 67 00:02:21,090 --> 00:02:22,559 that it was a question I got quite 68 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:25,079 frequently when conducting this study. 69 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:26,999 And it's different. I would like to make 70 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:29,129 clear straight away before I start where 71 00:02:29,130 --> 00:02:30,959 I'm standing, how I was funded. 72 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:32,999 So that is that nobody can accuse me of 73 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:34,679 any kind of bias. 74 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:36,089 I was hesitant to include it, but I think 75 00:02:36,090 --> 00:02:37,709 it's important to make clear how research 76 00:02:37,710 --> 00:02:39,059 is basically currently funded. 77 00:02:39,060 --> 00:02:40,559 So what happened to me? 78 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:41,819 I'm funded by the Department of 79 00:02:41,820 --> 00:02:43,649 Employment and Learning, which is a 80 00:02:43,650 --> 00:02:44,849 government institution in Northern 81 00:02:44,850 --> 00:02:46,709 Ireland. They cover my tuition fees 82 00:02:46,710 --> 00:02:49,229 because the UK just feels like education 83 00:02:49,230 --> 00:02:50,669 shouldn't be free. 84 00:02:50,670 --> 00:02:51,869 At the school of politics, of 85 00:02:51,870 --> 00:02:53,259 international studies and philosophy, 86 00:02:53,260 --> 00:02:55,349 they give me five thousand a year, which 87 00:02:55,350 --> 00:02:56,429 is not enough. That's the reason why I 88 00:02:56,430 --> 00:02:57,749 have a part time job as a tutor and 89 00:02:57,750 --> 00:02:59,579 teaching assistant and I get additional 90 00:02:59,580 --> 00:03:00,580 funding here and there, 91 00:03:01,710 --> 00:03:03,329 like the Larmer University scholarships 92 00:03:03,330 --> 00:03:05,429 and thunder. It's not that I want to bore 93 00:03:05,430 --> 00:03:06,599 you to death with that information. 94 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:08,369 I just want to emphasize one thing. 95 00:03:08,370 --> 00:03:10,319 None of these people, none of these 96 00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:12,209 organizations had any influence with what 97 00:03:12,210 --> 00:03:15,179 I did not, like, make clear 98 00:03:15,180 --> 00:03:16,979 that they had like certain kind of 99 00:03:16,980 --> 00:03:18,179 interests of finding this. 100 00:03:18,180 --> 00:03:19,259 They simply gave me the money on the 101 00:03:19,260 --> 00:03:20,579 basis of my funding application. 102 00:03:20,580 --> 00:03:21,629 That was it. 103 00:03:21,630 --> 00:03:24,089 So I hope I eliminated any doubt 104 00:03:24,090 --> 00:03:25,259 at this stage. 105 00:03:25,260 --> 00:03:27,329 And I was I really felt like I want to 106 00:03:27,330 --> 00:03:28,799 get this off my chest because it was a 107 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:30,419 question that got like over the course of 108 00:03:30,420 --> 00:03:32,219 this year multiple times. 109 00:03:32,220 --> 00:03:34,349 And on that basis, I'd like to make 110 00:03:34,350 --> 00:03:36,539 further clear misconception of what 111 00:03:36,540 --> 00:03:38,939 I'm interested in doing and working 112 00:03:38,940 --> 00:03:40,319 on. I'm currently in a field called 113 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:42,029 Critical Security Studies. 114 00:03:42,030 --> 00:03:44,489 And what that 115 00:03:44,490 --> 00:03:47,129 area is basically doing is it examines 116 00:03:47,130 --> 00:03:49,049 not like what old school security 117 00:03:49,050 --> 00:03:50,939 scholars would have done, like, oh, the 118 00:03:50,940 --> 00:03:52,229 Cold War is over and what are we doing 119 00:03:52,230 --> 00:03:53,729 with the world? It's more about what is 120 00:03:53,730 --> 00:03:55,739 the effect of security politics that we 121 00:03:55,740 --> 00:03:56,740 are 122 00:03:58,080 --> 00:03:59,969 what we are currently having. 123 00:03:59,970 --> 00:04:02,099 So I'm the 124 00:04:02,100 --> 00:04:03,719 I'm interested in analyzing the 125 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:05,969 consequences and effects of the integrity 126 00:04:05,970 --> 00:04:08,219 of hacking, hacktivism and understanding 127 00:04:08,220 --> 00:04:09,749 of the practice in identi of hackers and 128 00:04:09,750 --> 00:04:10,739 hacktivists. 129 00:04:10,740 --> 00:04:12,119 And very important. What I mean before 130 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:13,619 that, when I talk about consequences and 131 00:04:13,620 --> 00:04:15,719 effects, is basically 132 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:17,909 how they are portrayed 133 00:04:17,910 --> 00:04:19,648 and what they are how they are resisting 134 00:04:19,649 --> 00:04:20,909 this kind of portrayal. 135 00:04:20,910 --> 00:04:22,799 And really important is for me through 136 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:25,319 their eyes by giving them a voice, 137 00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:26,429 because I feel like a lot of the 138 00:04:26,430 --> 00:04:27,989 literature is basically talking about 139 00:04:27,990 --> 00:04:29,309 hackers and hacktivists, but they never 140 00:04:29,310 --> 00:04:30,569 really approached them and asked them, 141 00:04:30,570 --> 00:04:31,589 what do you think? 142 00:04:31,590 --> 00:04:33,149 And that is what I'm keen on doing and 143 00:04:33,150 --> 00:04:35,069 hopefully being able to transport here in 144 00:04:35,070 --> 00:04:36,120 the course of the next hour 145 00:04:37,230 --> 00:04:38,939 or so. The overview of what I'm going to 146 00:04:38,940 --> 00:04:40,859 talk about is I give a brief definition 147 00:04:40,860 --> 00:04:42,599 of hacking hacktivism so I can offend 148 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:44,219 people with my definition and you can 149 00:04:44,220 --> 00:04:46,139 scrutinize what I'm saying afterward. 150 00:04:46,140 --> 00:04:48,329 In the Q&A, I talk 151 00:04:48,330 --> 00:04:49,289 about incentivisation. 152 00:04:49,290 --> 00:04:50,729 It's a theoretical concept. 153 00:04:50,730 --> 00:04:52,529 I assume not a lot of people have heard 154 00:04:52,530 --> 00:04:53,819 about it. So I think it's important to 155 00:04:53,820 --> 00:04:56,519 talk about what I mean with this. 156 00:04:56,520 --> 00:04:58,349 I'm talking about my method, how I got 157 00:04:58,350 --> 00:05:00,449 it, the data, how analyzed it, the really 158 00:05:00,450 --> 00:05:02,339 important bit about my results. 159 00:05:02,340 --> 00:05:04,019 And then like the question of so what? 160 00:05:04,020 --> 00:05:05,399 Why is the social scientists doing this 161 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:06,899 research? Why is it we're funding it or 162 00:05:06,900 --> 00:05:08,309 why is it even relevant? 163 00:05:08,310 --> 00:05:09,539 And last but not least, question and 164 00:05:09,540 --> 00:05:11,699 answer session where I hope 165 00:05:11,700 --> 00:05:14,069 I'm able to answer questions which 166 00:05:14,070 --> 00:05:15,989 remain in the course of this talk. 167 00:05:17,010 --> 00:05:19,469 So hackers, it's a very ambiguous 168 00:05:19,470 --> 00:05:21,749 term, hacktivists as well. 169 00:05:21,750 --> 00:05:22,769 You know, you have certain kind of 170 00:05:22,770 --> 00:05:23,699 assumptions around it. 171 00:05:23,700 --> 00:05:25,499 My mom thinks about hackers, something 172 00:05:25,500 --> 00:05:27,659 else, like you guys think about hackers. 173 00:05:27,660 --> 00:05:29,219 And there's also a difference around 174 00:05:29,220 --> 00:05:31,679 countries and they're kind of like 175 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:33,129 contexts around it. 176 00:05:33,130 --> 00:05:35,219 But what I at least in my thesis, 177 00:05:35,220 --> 00:05:36,549 think about like hackers and hacktivists, 178 00:05:36,550 --> 00:05:37,949 it relates to computer hacking, at least 179 00:05:37,950 --> 00:05:40,139 from my thesis, and comprises activities 180 00:05:40,140 --> 00:05:41,839 ranging from unauthorized. 181 00:05:41,840 --> 00:05:44,359 Says like manipulating technology 182 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:46,489 for unorthodox means up to the production 183 00:05:46,490 --> 00:05:48,139 of free software, but it's really 184 00:05:48,140 --> 00:05:50,239 important, but I think about hacking is 185 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:51,109 the technique. 186 00:05:51,110 --> 00:05:53,179 So you may use it for like malicious 187 00:05:53,180 --> 00:05:54,349 reasons, but you don't need to. 188 00:05:54,350 --> 00:05:55,729 And I think that is one aspect. 189 00:05:55,730 --> 00:05:57,769 A lot of people blind out and I guess a 190 00:05:57,770 --> 00:06:00,109 lot of you think as well 191 00:06:00,110 --> 00:06:02,089 the hacktivism part is a bit more tricky 192 00:06:02,090 --> 00:06:03,529 because that is a word where a lot of 193 00:06:03,530 --> 00:06:04,589 people feel offended by. 194 00:06:04,590 --> 00:06:07,279 I think it's like use that as a buzzword 195 00:06:07,280 --> 00:06:08,299 the media uses. 196 00:06:08,300 --> 00:06:09,769 But I think it's a really interesting 197 00:06:09,770 --> 00:06:12,319 aspect to take into account and emerging 198 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:14,269 both concept, because when we talk about 199 00:06:14,270 --> 00:06:15,889 hackers and hacktivists at this moment of 200 00:06:15,890 --> 00:06:17,989 time, they are both somehow tied 201 00:06:17,990 --> 00:06:19,309 in with a certain kind of perception 202 00:06:19,310 --> 00:06:21,469 around them, how they look like, how they 203 00:06:21,470 --> 00:06:23,629 what they do. So therefore, Murcheson, 204 00:06:23,630 --> 00:06:25,669 for this specific study together, despite 205 00:06:25,670 --> 00:06:27,019 the fact, acknowledged there might be 206 00:06:27,020 --> 00:06:28,249 differences. 207 00:06:28,250 --> 00:06:30,379 So hacktivism for me is a form of 208 00:06:30,380 --> 00:06:31,489 political activism. 209 00:06:32,950 --> 00:06:34,819 I'm through hacking techniques and it's 210 00:06:34,820 --> 00:06:35,989 really important that there's something 211 00:06:35,990 --> 00:06:37,249 around values and ideology. 212 00:06:37,250 --> 00:06:39,439 And that makes it distinct for me 213 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:41,449 to hacking because you can hack your 214 00:06:41,450 --> 00:06:43,549 washing machine because 215 00:06:43,550 --> 00:06:45,289 you want to make coffee with it, but you 216 00:06:45,290 --> 00:06:47,929 can hack the washing machine to set a 217 00:06:47,930 --> 00:06:49,639 perhaps a political statement to, let's 218 00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:51,349 say, Siemens. 219 00:06:51,350 --> 00:06:52,969 And the really important bit, what I also 220 00:06:52,970 --> 00:06:54,469 think a lot of people forget is like 221 00:06:54,470 --> 00:06:56,269 their activities stretch from illegal to 222 00:06:56,270 --> 00:06:58,219 legal. So you can do it both ways, 223 00:06:58,220 --> 00:06:59,869 constructive and constructive. 224 00:06:59,870 --> 00:07:02,089 And what I mean with that is the 225 00:07:02,090 --> 00:07:03,589 idea of like builders and brokers. 226 00:07:03,590 --> 00:07:04,939 And if you're interested in that, there 227 00:07:04,940 --> 00:07:06,019 were all the talks and papers I've 228 00:07:06,020 --> 00:07:07,969 published where where you can read more 229 00:07:07,970 --> 00:07:09,799 about the idea of what I'm thinking 230 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:12,319 around there and very important is 231 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:13,909 in aligns with your worldviews and 232 00:07:13,910 --> 00:07:16,039 against. And what I mean with that is 233 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:19,699 basically, as we see currently, 234 00:07:19,700 --> 00:07:21,529 everybody's really excited when anonymous 235 00:07:21,530 --> 00:07:23,719 the stuff around against ISIS. 236 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:24,979 But when they do something against your 237 00:07:24,980 --> 00:07:26,659 own government, you basically perhaps 238 00:07:26,660 --> 00:07:28,339 like feel that this is not correct. 239 00:07:28,340 --> 00:07:30,469 So hacktivism is like any kind 240 00:07:30,470 --> 00:07:32,059 of other political activism. 241 00:07:32,060 --> 00:07:34,399 If you are going to an anti-racist 242 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:36,709 demonstration, you are in alliance 243 00:07:36,710 --> 00:07:39,169 to that. If you are in the KKK, 244 00:07:39,170 --> 00:07:41,119 you certainly wouldn't feel very happy 245 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:42,919 about that demonstration taking place. 246 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:44,509 So this is the important bit about 247 00:07:44,510 --> 00:07:46,699 activism. It depends on your world views. 248 00:07:46,700 --> 00:07:48,439 And that is the same with hacktivism. 249 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:50,569 OK, so the 250 00:07:50,570 --> 00:07:52,279 redebate, which is troubling or 251 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:53,599 problematic, is the terms are 252 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:54,799 controversial. 253 00:07:54,800 --> 00:07:57,049 So we all have like the idea 254 00:07:57,050 --> 00:07:58,879 of like the hacker with the balaclava 255 00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:00,709 sitting in front of a desktop, having the 256 00:08:00,710 --> 00:08:02,959 terminal open and 257 00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:05,299 the misrepresentation goes 258 00:08:05,300 --> 00:08:07,489 in the media, politicians even 259 00:08:07,490 --> 00:08:09,679 like the industry, but also like 260 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:10,579 academia. 261 00:08:10,580 --> 00:08:12,709 And what is happening is that it's often 262 00:08:12,710 --> 00:08:14,329 considered that that's kind of a security 263 00:08:14,330 --> 00:08:16,429 threat. Construction at least like it, 264 00:08:16,430 --> 00:08:17,569 at least in the UK. 265 00:08:17,570 --> 00:08:18,570 Definitely. 266 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:21,959 This is the starting point for my 267 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:24,329 research, this idea of like 268 00:08:24,330 --> 00:08:26,189 we have a certain kind of image in mind 269 00:08:26,190 --> 00:08:28,649 about like hackers and hacktivists, and 270 00:08:28,650 --> 00:08:30,899 it's like this frat image 271 00:08:30,900 --> 00:08:33,149 and that is where securitization comes in 272 00:08:33,150 --> 00:08:35,519 or more important in securitization. 273 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:37,469 And what I mean with that is one does not 274 00:08:37,470 --> 00:08:38,489 simply say security. 275 00:08:38,490 --> 00:08:41,038 Security is really something 276 00:08:41,039 --> 00:08:43,079 which is used in political contexts, 277 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:44,699 achieving a certain kind of purpose, 278 00:08:44,700 --> 00:08:46,769 having a certain kind of aim and 279 00:08:46,770 --> 00:08:48,419 in synchronization of theory basically 280 00:08:48,420 --> 00:08:50,189 says security issues do not necessarily 281 00:08:50,190 --> 00:08:51,929 reflect the objective material 282 00:08:51,930 --> 00:08:54,059 circumstances of the world. 283 00:08:54,060 --> 00:08:56,129 So if you are, for 284 00:08:56,130 --> 00:08:58,259 instance, if I'm going to macro steps on 285 00:08:58,260 --> 00:08:59,819 the stage and says we have a terrorist 286 00:08:59,820 --> 00:09:02,039 threat, something happens. 287 00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:04,169 And the important bit is security 288 00:09:04,170 --> 00:09:06,299 is like cool constitutional 289 00:09:06,300 --> 00:09:07,529 like ICO. 290 00:09:07,530 --> 00:09:09,929 It relates to something insecure, 291 00:09:09,930 --> 00:09:11,489 just like you have the idea of good and 292 00:09:11,490 --> 00:09:13,679 bad. It requires the opposite. 293 00:09:13,680 --> 00:09:15,509 Security requires an opposite as well. 294 00:09:15,510 --> 00:09:16,889 There's something secure and something 295 00:09:16,890 --> 00:09:18,029 insecure. 296 00:09:18,030 --> 00:09:20,099 And in that regard, they are 297 00:09:20,100 --> 00:09:22,709 relative. And if you consider 298 00:09:22,710 --> 00:09:25,020 something as a security threat, 299 00:09:26,250 --> 00:09:27,569 there must be an opposite to that. 300 00:09:27,570 --> 00:09:29,009 And this is an important starting point 301 00:09:29,010 --> 00:09:31,409 from a research on 302 00:09:31,410 --> 00:09:33,809 what happens with when politicians 303 00:09:33,810 --> 00:09:35,369 or the cybersecurity sector talks about 304 00:09:35,370 --> 00:09:37,529 hacking. What happens with those being 305 00:09:37,530 --> 00:09:39,749 the, you know, the insecurity 306 00:09:39,750 --> 00:09:41,549 level, the hackers and hacktivists, 307 00:09:42,720 --> 00:09:44,819 because they propagate fear and have 308 00:09:44,820 --> 00:09:45,809 an effect. 309 00:09:45,810 --> 00:09:48,569 So my interest is basically to understand 310 00:09:48,570 --> 00:09:50,669 or for the entire organization is 311 00:09:50,670 --> 00:09:52,769 how and why this process 312 00:09:52,770 --> 00:09:55,019 happens and to identify the effects 313 00:09:55,020 --> 00:09:57,209 of it. And the effect is what I 314 00:09:57,210 --> 00:09:59,879 want to talk about today in this talk, 315 00:09:59,880 --> 00:10:01,199 and this is basically what I'm trying to 316 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:03,119 do and hope to achieve in the next like 317 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:04,679 30 minutes left. 318 00:10:04,680 --> 00:10:06,869 So coming to the effort, because that's 319 00:10:06,870 --> 00:10:09,029 always a very 320 00:10:09,030 --> 00:10:11,369 interesting aspect, at least in academia. 321 00:10:11,370 --> 00:10:12,719 It's a qualitative research. 322 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:14,309 And I make straight away the claim I'm 323 00:10:14,310 --> 00:10:16,769 not making any kind of 324 00:10:16,770 --> 00:10:18,839 claims about the community, whatever 325 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:21,659 that is, it's not generalizable. 326 00:10:21,660 --> 00:10:23,279 It was like based on thirty five 327 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:24,839 interviews I've conducted in the course 328 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:26,789 of a research fellowship. 329 00:10:26,790 --> 00:10:29,399 I was in Berlin for three months, 330 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:31,439 but the interviews were conducted both 331 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:33,089 face to face, but also digitally using 332 00:10:33,090 --> 00:10:35,999 voice over IP services. 333 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:38,279 And I have ethical approval 334 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:40,859 for this study 335 00:10:40,860 --> 00:10:43,289 and they were non-recurring 336 00:10:43,290 --> 00:10:43,769 interviews. 337 00:10:43,770 --> 00:10:46,049 So I've not met those people again, 338 00:10:46,050 --> 00:10:48,239 necessarily. And like, it's 339 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:49,499 really important they were conducted in 340 00:10:49,500 --> 00:10:50,729 English and in German. 341 00:10:50,730 --> 00:10:52,829 But for the purpose of this talk, all of 342 00:10:52,830 --> 00:10:54,959 the quotes have been translated 343 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:56,789 to English by myself. 344 00:10:56,790 --> 00:10:58,859 And I know that there's one word which a 345 00:10:58,860 --> 00:11:00,299 lot of people would probably get offended 346 00:11:00,300 --> 00:11:01,739 by. It's called self-identified. 347 00:11:01,740 --> 00:11:03,119 And I know that there are issues around 348 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:04,679 that and I will touch upon that in the 349 00:11:04,680 --> 00:11:05,819 results section. 350 00:11:05,820 --> 00:11:07,769 But but what I mean with that is 351 00:11:07,770 --> 00:11:10,049 basically anyone who basically talked 352 00:11:10,050 --> 00:11:11,939 to me was made aware in a participant 353 00:11:11,940 --> 00:11:14,039 information sheet, which basically gave 354 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:15,600 them the 355 00:11:17,010 --> 00:11:19,859 the knowledge that they 356 00:11:19,860 --> 00:11:22,049 were looking for people who call 357 00:11:22,050 --> 00:11:23,369 themselves hackers and activists, and 358 00:11:23,370 --> 00:11:24,929 they were willing to participate. 359 00:11:24,930 --> 00:11:27,149 They would also make clear that, like the 360 00:11:27,150 --> 00:11:29,009 interviews were all recorded and I 361 00:11:29,010 --> 00:11:31,199 transcribed all the interviews on Tale's 362 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:32,579 they've never have been on a Windows 363 00:11:32,580 --> 00:11:34,169 computer and will ever be. 364 00:11:34,170 --> 00:11:36,209 And if you have more questions around the 365 00:11:36,210 --> 00:11:38,429 ethics and data protection issue, 366 00:11:38,430 --> 00:11:39,809 please feel free to get in contact with 367 00:11:39,810 --> 00:11:42,419 me and analyze the interviews 368 00:11:42,420 --> 00:11:44,819 with semantic analysis, 369 00:11:44,820 --> 00:11:46,529 which is a six step approach. 370 00:11:46,530 --> 00:11:48,719 You can read up on it and basically 371 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:50,969 looking at like kind of themes in 372 00:11:50,970 --> 00:11:53,039 interviews and the important bit 373 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:54,299 is about P1. 374 00:11:54,300 --> 00:11:55,889 So in the course of the next slide you 375 00:11:55,890 --> 00:11:58,139 will see Hlophe like P1, P2P, 376 00:11:58,140 --> 00:12:00,929 twelve, whatever that means, participants 377 00:12:00,930 --> 00:12:03,569 plus numbers. So I had coded identifiers 378 00:12:03,570 --> 00:12:05,909 to know where this quote 379 00:12:05,910 --> 00:12:08,039 comes from, but I did not 380 00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:09,040 include any kind of 381 00:12:10,530 --> 00:12:12,179 more information about them, like their 382 00:12:12,180 --> 00:12:13,799 names or the location or anything like 383 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:14,369 that. 384 00:12:14,370 --> 00:12:16,829 And really important is also that 385 00:12:16,830 --> 00:12:19,259 that I also told my precedent's 386 00:12:19,260 --> 00:12:21,209 that they cannot tell me under any 387 00:12:21,210 --> 00:12:22,889 circumstances, tell me any kind of 388 00:12:22,890 --> 00:12:24,629 incriminating material. 389 00:12:24,630 --> 00:12:26,579 So that limits the results as well, 390 00:12:26,580 --> 00:12:27,929 because they couldn't tell me, like, for 391 00:12:27,930 --> 00:12:28,889 instance, if they would have done 392 00:12:28,890 --> 00:12:30,689 something illegal, which I'm happy they 393 00:12:30,690 --> 00:12:31,889 didn't. 394 00:12:31,890 --> 00:12:34,109 So that is also important for the 395 00:12:34,110 --> 00:12:36,539 further steps in analyzing 396 00:12:36,540 --> 00:12:37,829 my results. 397 00:12:37,830 --> 00:12:40,259 OK, and I'm not providing more 398 00:12:40,260 --> 00:12:42,239 information about my participants because 399 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:44,429 of the possibility of 400 00:12:44,430 --> 00:12:46,139 social risk involved for the people who 401 00:12:46,140 --> 00:12:47,339 talk to me. 402 00:12:47,340 --> 00:12:49,499 And that's simply 403 00:12:49,500 --> 00:12:51,209 why I provided you with the numbers and 404 00:12:51,210 --> 00:12:52,769 the gender, despite the fact that gender 405 00:12:52,770 --> 00:12:54,360 might be there's a 406 00:12:55,590 --> 00:12:57,719 massive gender inequality here, 407 00:12:57,720 --> 00:12:59,069 but it was really hard to find females, 408 00:12:59,070 --> 00:13:00,449 unfortunately. 409 00:13:00,450 --> 00:13:02,519 OK, so not everybody is 410 00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:04,589 completely excited for the 411 00:13:04,590 --> 00:13:05,590 results. I hope 412 00:13:06,780 --> 00:13:08,879 the results basically are split into 413 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:11,579 three themes and the themes, 414 00:13:11,580 --> 00:13:13,739 of course, I've identified 415 00:13:13,740 --> 00:13:15,779 and I found them because they were on the 416 00:13:15,780 --> 00:13:17,519 basis of the method I used. 417 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:19,139 They were different kind of steps I went 418 00:13:19,140 --> 00:13:21,299 through. That these were prominent 419 00:13:21,300 --> 00:13:23,579 topics coming up in all interviews, 420 00:13:23,580 --> 00:13:25,649 and one of them is called identity, and 421 00:13:25,650 --> 00:13:27,659 what I mean with that theme is basically 422 00:13:27,660 --> 00:13:29,729 the misrepresentation of hackers 423 00:13:29,730 --> 00:13:31,739 and hacktivists leads to their 424 00:13:31,740 --> 00:13:33,119 differentiation. 425 00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:35,219 And I will go into depth around 426 00:13:35,220 --> 00:13:36,869 like all of them. But that's just like a 427 00:13:36,870 --> 00:13:38,489 short overview of what you can expect for 428 00:13:38,490 --> 00:13:40,529 the next like 15. 429 00:13:40,530 --> 00:13:42,299 I don't know how many minutes left. 430 00:13:42,300 --> 00:13:44,819 The insecurity topic or theme 431 00:13:44,820 --> 00:13:46,409 is basically the threat to privacy and 432 00:13:46,410 --> 00:13:48,659 security for the community leads 433 00:13:48,660 --> 00:13:51,269 to their investment in more security. 434 00:13:51,270 --> 00:13:53,309 It's like a vicious circle and the last 435 00:13:53,310 --> 00:13:54,749 bit is called system. 436 00:13:54,750 --> 00:13:57,089 And what I mean with that is the mistrust 437 00:13:57,090 --> 00:13:59,219 in authorities and hierarchies 438 00:13:59,220 --> 00:14:01,019 like in the current political system 439 00:14:01,020 --> 00:14:03,119 leads them to conduct activism and 440 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:05,339 potentially also hacktivism. 441 00:14:05,340 --> 00:14:06,269 OK. 442 00:14:06,270 --> 00:14:08,249 A really important point is also there's 443 00:14:08,250 --> 00:14:10,379 two different dynamics 444 00:14:10,380 --> 00:14:13,049 involved in all those themes. 445 00:14:13,050 --> 00:14:14,789 And one attempt, the external and 446 00:14:14,790 --> 00:14:16,330 internal. It's not the most sexy 447 00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:19,979 like definition I could find, 448 00:14:19,980 --> 00:14:21,869 but what I mean is with external what 449 00:14:21,870 --> 00:14:24,389 participants think is happening. 450 00:14:24,390 --> 00:14:26,549 So they were often saying, you know, 451 00:14:26,550 --> 00:14:28,649 society thinks this and that's what they 452 00:14:28,650 --> 00:14:30,779 think is going on at the internal 453 00:14:30,780 --> 00:14:32,429 dynamic. Is this resistance. 454 00:14:32,430 --> 00:14:34,590 So what are they doing against that? 455 00:14:35,700 --> 00:14:37,829 And I will talk about both 456 00:14:37,830 --> 00:14:40,029 processes for each of the themes. 457 00:14:40,030 --> 00:14:41,030 OK. 458 00:14:43,740 --> 00:14:45,899 So coming to the first theme called 459 00:14:45,900 --> 00:14:48,059 Identity, which I personally think 460 00:14:48,060 --> 00:14:50,129 is really fascinating and one 461 00:14:50,130 --> 00:14:52,229 of my favorite themes and the external 462 00:14:52,230 --> 00:14:53,460 aspect is 463 00:14:54,570 --> 00:14:56,729 to make you again, like 464 00:14:56,730 --> 00:14:58,289 think of it, the first identifying myths 465 00:14:58,290 --> 00:14:59,759 about the misrepresentation leads to 466 00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:01,109 differentiation. 467 00:15:01,110 --> 00:15:03,929 And in the external aspect is basically 468 00:15:03,930 --> 00:15:05,339 that due to the process of just 469 00:15:05,340 --> 00:15:07,079 happening, they feel pushed out of sort 470 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:08,909 of a sphere of legitimacy by 471 00:15:08,910 --> 00:15:09,989 participants. 472 00:15:09,990 --> 00:15:12,149 And one of the first themes or issues 473 00:15:12,150 --> 00:15:13,649 which comes up in interviews quite 474 00:15:13,650 --> 00:15:15,479 frequently is the other. 475 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:17,249 So participants talked a lot about like 476 00:15:17,250 --> 00:15:18,839 the aspect that they are considered as 477 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:21,239 like this associated with that negative 478 00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:22,469 connotation of like, you know, the 479 00:15:22,470 --> 00:15:24,239 hackers are the criminals. 480 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:26,309 We're the we are somehow 481 00:15:26,310 --> 00:15:28,379 put in a categorization as a participant 482 00:15:28,380 --> 00:15:30,479 said prejudice and free a categorization 483 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:32,459 that is lopsided, broad, and where a lot 484 00:15:32,460 --> 00:15:34,019 of people would fit in. 485 00:15:34,020 --> 00:15:35,969 So it's like a lot of the participants 486 00:15:35,970 --> 00:15:38,069 spoke about it. So, you know, it's so 487 00:15:38,070 --> 00:15:40,139 skewed towards one perspective that we 488 00:15:40,140 --> 00:15:42,449 have, like, no possibility 489 00:15:42,450 --> 00:15:44,819 to be considered anything else. 490 00:15:44,820 --> 00:15:46,499 And that's also duality of perception. 491 00:15:46,500 --> 00:15:48,179 That is where the quote they used for the 492 00:15:48,180 --> 00:15:50,309 talk of 493 00:15:50,310 --> 00:15:51,929 this presentation comes from. 494 00:15:51,930 --> 00:15:52,869 I feel like a criminal. 495 00:15:52,870 --> 00:15:55,049 I have to be God at the same time. 496 00:15:55,050 --> 00:15:57,239 So they are basically often both 497 00:15:57,240 --> 00:15:59,399 like heroes, like, you know, 498 00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:01,139 my mom thinks they can do anything when 499 00:16:01,140 --> 00:16:02,999 they touch her computer, but they can 500 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:04,859 also be they are also that negative 501 00:16:04,860 --> 00:16:07,269 aspect of like the the criminal 502 00:16:07,270 --> 00:16:08,969 or the terrorist whatsoever. 503 00:16:08,970 --> 00:16:10,259 And I think it's really interesting. 504 00:16:10,260 --> 00:16:11,519 I don't know if you've seen that Facebook 505 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:13,259 meme about the shooting of immigrants and 506 00:16:13,260 --> 00:16:14,609 it's the same kind of the trading US 507 00:16:14,610 --> 00:16:17,069 hacker. You're both like heroes 508 00:16:17,070 --> 00:16:19,439 and like this incredible magicians. 509 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:20,999 But at the same time, you're the readers 510 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:23,419 who, you know, break every computer. 511 00:16:23,420 --> 00:16:25,199 That is an interesting dynamic. 512 00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:27,269 Salter talks about like that in regards 513 00:16:27,270 --> 00:16:29,489 to her in a book about the U.S., 514 00:16:29,490 --> 00:16:31,049 How Anonymous is often portrayed as like 515 00:16:31,050 --> 00:16:33,239 that Falck Devil, that boogeyman 516 00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:36,599 we're using to basically 517 00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:39,209 emphasize their otherness. 518 00:16:39,210 --> 00:16:41,699 And that does not necessarily correspond 519 00:16:41,700 --> 00:16:44,759 to what my participants perceive them 520 00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:45,629 get a thing. 521 00:16:45,630 --> 00:16:47,609 And it used a quote to basically 522 00:16:47,610 --> 00:16:48,719 exemplify this. 523 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:50,459 It's from the Daily Mail, which is a very 524 00:16:50,460 --> 00:16:52,380 high quality newspaper in the UK, 525 00:16:53,610 --> 00:16:55,799 is the stereotypical 526 00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:58,049 portrayed portrayal and that goes along 527 00:16:58,050 --> 00:16:59,189 with an equation. 528 00:16:59,190 --> 00:17:01,289 And so there's a there's the idea of 529 00:17:01,290 --> 00:17:03,179 like they are the cultural outsiders, 530 00:17:03,180 --> 00:17:04,679 they are the terrorists, the weirdos, the 531 00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:05,879 sociopaths. 532 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:07,108 And it's really interesting because if 533 00:17:07,109 --> 00:17:09,059 you read the book and Greenwald, he spoke 534 00:17:09,060 --> 00:17:11,489 about the same thing I with Chelsea 535 00:17:11,490 --> 00:17:13,588 Manning, Edward Snowden, Assange, 536 00:17:13,589 --> 00:17:15,449 where basically their personal life got 537 00:17:15,450 --> 00:17:17,729 to their political actions, got entangled 538 00:17:17,730 --> 00:17:20,969 with like their mental health or 539 00:17:20,970 --> 00:17:23,279 they were Nazis, delusional, anything 540 00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:23,939 like that. 541 00:17:23,940 --> 00:17:25,289 And the same thing. Basically, my 542 00:17:25,290 --> 00:17:26,969 participants emphasized that the hackers, 543 00:17:26,970 --> 00:17:29,249 you know, as it says, a baby faced, 544 00:17:29,250 --> 00:17:31,259 they're young, they have black hoodies, 545 00:17:31,260 --> 00:17:33,419 sit in the cellar are weirdos. 546 00:17:33,420 --> 00:17:35,669 And I mean, like if you read the news and 547 00:17:35,670 --> 00:17:37,409 especially quality newspapers like that, 548 00:17:37,410 --> 00:17:38,759 you will find those stereotypes. 549 00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:40,289 And this is one of the best examples I 550 00:17:40,290 --> 00:17:41,579 can think of. 551 00:17:41,580 --> 00:17:43,709 So this personality disorder 552 00:17:43,710 --> 00:17:45,839 is often there and they feel like it's 553 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:47,369 a lot of participants were speaking out 554 00:17:47,370 --> 00:17:48,629 against this equation of being the 555 00:17:48,630 --> 00:17:49,920 terrorists, of being the weirdos. 556 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:52,739 Another aspect which is happening, 557 00:17:52,740 --> 00:17:54,539 according to them, is scapegoating. 558 00:17:54,540 --> 00:17:56,429 And I call that instrumentalise. 559 00:17:56,430 --> 00:17:58,259 It's the purposeful attempt to pull them 560 00:17:58,260 --> 00:18:00,119 towards that. And that's a quote, the 561 00:18:00,120 --> 00:18:02,249 stupid word they use cyber, 562 00:18:02,250 --> 00:18:04,349 cyber warfare, cyber warrior, all 563 00:18:04,350 --> 00:18:05,519 this nonsense. 564 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:07,739 And funny enough, the ceasefire, 565 00:18:07,740 --> 00:18:10,469 which is like an American military 566 00:18:10,470 --> 00:18:12,749 organization company related 567 00:18:12,750 --> 00:18:14,759 to the state, uses, you know, that cyber 568 00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:17,219 word as well, support the war fighter 569 00:18:17,220 --> 00:18:18,119 in cyberspace. 570 00:18:18,120 --> 00:18:20,309 And I know that the word here is very 571 00:18:20,310 --> 00:18:21,389 controversial. 572 00:18:21,390 --> 00:18:23,279 There's cool stickers around lying around 573 00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:25,259 here about the whole word cyber, but it's 574 00:18:25,260 --> 00:18:27,119 basically hackers, cyber. 575 00:18:27,120 --> 00:18:29,399 All those words are into and brought into 576 00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:31,799 the context. Basically get funding, 577 00:18:31,800 --> 00:18:33,839 make people think of like, oh, I need to 578 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:35,939 buy a new McAfee product or 579 00:18:35,940 --> 00:18:38,639 whatever. And that is another aspect. 580 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:39,959 But this been spoke about the 581 00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:41,909 scapegoating, like the hacker word is 582 00:18:41,910 --> 00:18:44,339 used in job to basically make 583 00:18:44,340 --> 00:18:46,949 in cybersecurity with love hacktivists, 584 00:18:46,950 --> 00:18:48,569 for instance, because they are going to 585 00:18:48,570 --> 00:18:50,909 help them sell all kinds of crap. 586 00:18:50,910 --> 00:18:53,309 So it's basically a word used to 587 00:18:53,310 --> 00:18:54,599 get money rolling. 588 00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:56,819 And another example, this year 589 00:18:56,820 --> 00:18:58,979 and CNBC, there was an article making 590 00:18:58,980 --> 00:19:01,079 money in the war against hackers. 591 00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:03,539 So that is another dynamic which 592 00:19:03,540 --> 00:19:05,159 of which participants emphasized is 593 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:06,160 taking place. 594 00:19:07,050 --> 00:19:09,479 Now, what is basically 595 00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:11,069 then the resistance? 596 00:19:11,070 --> 00:19:13,199 How do they counteract this process? 597 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:15,179 And that is super fascinating for me. 598 00:19:15,180 --> 00:19:17,279 One aspect is a broadening of the term. 599 00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:19,349 So I bet if 600 00:19:19,350 --> 00:19:21,689 I ask everyone in here what hacking 601 00:19:21,690 --> 00:19:23,789 or hacktivism is, I will not get a 602 00:19:23,790 --> 00:19:25,489 coherent answer from anyone. 603 00:19:25,490 --> 00:19:27,089 And that was the same. I have identified 604 00:19:27,090 --> 00:19:28,889 with the participants. 605 00:19:28,890 --> 00:19:30,809 So all of them were emphasizing basically 606 00:19:30,810 --> 00:19:32,219 it's a broad concept. 607 00:19:32,220 --> 00:19:34,169 We talk about innovating about, like 608 00:19:34,170 --> 00:19:35,219 providing shortcuts. 609 00:19:35,220 --> 00:19:37,679 I'm still to finding the truth. 610 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:39,809 So it's like some people consider it as 611 00:19:39,810 --> 00:19:42,219 an art of understanding the world. 612 00:19:42,220 --> 00:19:43,839 People call a hacktivism online 613 00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:45,789 rebellion. I could give you tons of 614 00:19:45,790 --> 00:19:47,409 quotes around the issue, but what it 615 00:19:47,410 --> 00:19:49,419 means basically is it's very diverse and 616 00:19:49,420 --> 00:19:51,099 it's completely contrary to what the 617 00:19:51,100 --> 00:19:53,679 media portrays, what the politicians 618 00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:55,629 portray, what my mom thinks of hackers. 619 00:19:55,630 --> 00:19:56,859 It's like two different things, 620 00:19:56,860 --> 00:19:57,999 basically. 621 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:00,099 And the other thing is being a hacker and 622 00:20:00,100 --> 00:20:02,259 activist is a mindset and it's 623 00:20:02,260 --> 00:20:03,159 an attitude. 624 00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:05,049 And I think that is really interesting to 625 00:20:05,050 --> 00:20:06,879 basically think about, like who is 626 00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:08,739 working in the industry and our old 627 00:20:08,740 --> 00:20:10,959 people working in these three hackers. 628 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:12,819 And there seems to be not the case of 629 00:20:12,820 --> 00:20:14,919 these tech participants emphasized 630 00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:16,479 that. Some of them, you know, you can 631 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:18,459 study computer science to science, but 632 00:20:18,460 --> 00:20:19,609 you don't need to be a hacker. 633 00:20:19,610 --> 00:20:20,649 There's a difference here. There's a 634 00:20:20,650 --> 00:20:21,999 different kind of mindset. 635 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:23,799 And that is like encompassed to the 636 00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:25,359 broadening of the term, which goes 637 00:20:25,360 --> 00:20:26,469 against the narrowing. 638 00:20:26,470 --> 00:20:29,349 And the lump sided aspect to 639 00:20:29,350 --> 00:20:31,749 the other side is basically doing 640 00:20:31,750 --> 00:20:33,619 good. A thing is they distinguish 641 00:20:33,620 --> 00:20:35,179 themselves so often. 642 00:20:35,180 --> 00:20:37,089 My participants highlighted a diversity, 643 00:20:37,090 --> 00:20:38,919 so they set about legal, illegal, white, 644 00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:40,989 black, positive, negative, all of that. 645 00:20:40,990 --> 00:20:42,339 And so basically the emphasis emphasize 646 00:20:42,340 --> 00:20:44,859 not every hacker's a black hat. 647 00:20:44,860 --> 00:20:46,959 And what is really important here is 648 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:49,059 also that there's legal ways of being a 649 00:20:49,060 --> 00:20:50,589 hacker. And I mean, like everyone here 650 00:20:50,590 --> 00:20:52,629 knows that. But I still want to emphasize 651 00:20:52,630 --> 00:20:54,219 this is a research done for a broader 652 00:20:54,220 --> 00:20:56,199 academic audience, which does not know 653 00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:57,279 that. So. 654 00:20:59,430 --> 00:21:01,199 So they talk, for instance, about like, 655 00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:03,269 you know, I mean, what we calls might be 656 00:21:03,270 --> 00:21:05,489 a bit damaged, but that might be physical 657 00:21:05,490 --> 00:21:06,929 damage you can do when you bomb. 658 00:21:06,930 --> 00:21:09,059 Like it's not that anyone would do that, 659 00:21:09,060 --> 00:21:11,129 but, like, I just give an equivalent 660 00:21:11,130 --> 00:21:13,229 here. So they oppose also 661 00:21:13,230 --> 00:21:14,819 certain kind of hacks, which they're 662 00:21:14,820 --> 00:21:15,719 often accused of. 663 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:17,909 So, for instance, against the media or 664 00:21:17,910 --> 00:21:19,199 private individual or critical 665 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:21,449 infrastructures, all words politicians 666 00:21:21,450 --> 00:21:22,859 would use to basically construct the 667 00:21:22,860 --> 00:21:24,689 picture of like these hackers, which is a 668 00:21:24,690 --> 00:21:27,749 specific kind of athea, are doing 669 00:21:27,750 --> 00:21:29,789 so they're distinguishing themselves very 670 00:21:29,790 --> 00:21:31,769 important is also they reclaim and clean 671 00:21:31,770 --> 00:21:33,419 the term. And I think that is really 672 00:21:33,420 --> 00:21:35,339 interesting in regards to, for instance, 673 00:21:35,340 --> 00:21:37,199 how they distinguish between hacking, 674 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:39,149 cracking, despite the fact I acknowledge 675 00:21:39,150 --> 00:21:41,549 that not everybody loves that term. 676 00:21:41,550 --> 00:21:43,169 And also they are focusing on like 677 00:21:43,170 --> 00:21:44,129 official organization. 678 00:21:44,130 --> 00:21:45,699 I mean, we're here at the CCC, the 679 00:21:45,700 --> 00:21:47,879 technology organization, the 680 00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:50,129 F f like Patriot through the Net, all 681 00:21:50,130 --> 00:21:51,749 of that. So there there's ways of like 682 00:21:51,750 --> 00:21:53,759 keeping it clean, but being in an 683 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:56,099 organization which uses the term 684 00:21:56,100 --> 00:21:58,619 and basically therefore we are reclaiming 685 00:21:58,620 --> 00:22:00,689 the word. And there was a quote and 686 00:22:00,690 --> 00:22:01,889 there was multiple quotes where people 687 00:22:01,890 --> 00:22:03,719 said, for example, the CCC managed to 688 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:05,579 make it a positively connotative turn, 689 00:22:05,580 --> 00:22:07,349 which is not the case in many other 690 00:22:07,350 --> 00:22:08,189 countries. 691 00:22:08,190 --> 00:22:09,629 And I can say that this is certainly the 692 00:22:09,630 --> 00:22:10,630 case in the U.K. 693 00:22:11,670 --> 00:22:14,009 And also people were emphasizing hackers 694 00:22:14,010 --> 00:22:15,449 have a good reputation in Germany, which 695 00:22:15,450 --> 00:22:17,159 goes along with the idea that, you know, 696 00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:18,719 this is one of the oldest and largest 697 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:20,730 hacker communities in the world. 698 00:22:21,870 --> 00:22:23,999 And what comes out here is like the idea 699 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:25,619 of self identity. 700 00:22:25,620 --> 00:22:27,959 And that is really fascinating because 701 00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:29,759 there seems in my participants being a 702 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:31,380 flexible identity around like 703 00:22:32,820 --> 00:22:34,949 despite the fact everybody agreed 704 00:22:34,950 --> 00:22:37,199 to talk to me, knowing 705 00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:38,519 that I look for people who call 706 00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:40,679 themselves hackers and activists. 707 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:43,289 Now, nearly every time people said, 708 00:22:43,290 --> 00:22:45,479 well, you know, I'm not 709 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:47,219 would not run around calling myself a 710 00:22:47,220 --> 00:22:49,419 hacker or but despite the fact 711 00:22:49,420 --> 00:22:50,699 acknowledge I'm falling into this 712 00:22:50,700 --> 00:22:51,659 category. 713 00:22:51,660 --> 00:22:53,819 So people would say I never introduced 714 00:22:53,820 --> 00:22:54,719 myself like this. 715 00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:55,799 And there's one aspect. 716 00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:57,509 For instance, I would not define myself 717 00:22:57,510 --> 00:22:58,649 as a hacker. And I'm, for instance, 718 00:22:58,650 --> 00:23:00,749 talking to them and the politicians 719 00:23:00,750 --> 00:23:01,979 because, you know, it has negative 720 00:23:01,980 --> 00:23:03,030 connotations to it. 721 00:23:05,430 --> 00:23:07,439 That is really an important aspect 722 00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:09,359 because there seems to be something going 723 00:23:09,360 --> 00:23:11,129 on between security researchers versus 724 00:23:11,130 --> 00:23:13,259 hackers and the term is used 725 00:23:13,260 --> 00:23:14,189 here as well. 726 00:23:14,190 --> 00:23:16,409 But read the news magazines. 727 00:23:16,410 --> 00:23:18,629 When are they referring to hackers and 728 00:23:18,630 --> 00:23:19,979 when are they referring to security 729 00:23:19,980 --> 00:23:22,169 researchers doing the same thing? 730 00:23:22,170 --> 00:23:24,929 But like, suddenly it might swaps 731 00:23:24,930 --> 00:23:26,639 in the media. And so, for instance, one 732 00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:28,589 participant said, I've been asked by an 733 00:23:28,590 --> 00:23:30,149 immigration officer once if I was a 734 00:23:30,150 --> 00:23:31,769 hacker, and that was kind of funny. 735 00:23:31,770 --> 00:23:33,419 I told him I was computer security 736 00:23:33,420 --> 00:23:35,579 researcher. I'm I'm not sure what exactly 737 00:23:35,580 --> 00:23:37,139 he meant by Hacker. 738 00:23:37,140 --> 00:23:39,479 And this has happened to other friends. 739 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:41,219 And there are other person says, for 740 00:23:41,220 --> 00:23:42,749 instance, there were some situations 741 00:23:42,750 --> 00:23:44,369 where I'm a hacktivist or all the times 742 00:23:44,370 --> 00:23:46,379 when I'm a security guy. 743 00:23:46,380 --> 00:23:47,459 And that is interesting. 744 00:23:47,460 --> 00:23:48,990 I'm I acknowledge 745 00:23:50,070 --> 00:23:51,269 social identity theory. 746 00:23:51,270 --> 00:23:52,679 It's a psychological theory is basically 747 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:54,209 saying, you know, you can have shifting 748 00:23:54,210 --> 00:23:55,169 identities. 749 00:23:55,170 --> 00:23:56,549 For instance, I could say, for instance, 750 00:23:56,550 --> 00:23:58,649 you're the audience and you're 751 00:23:58,650 --> 00:24:00,089 the audience. I'm the speaker. 752 00:24:00,090 --> 00:24:01,499 But I could make another identity 753 00:24:01,500 --> 00:24:03,299 salient. I could say I'm a female. 754 00:24:03,300 --> 00:24:05,039 So all of the other females in this room 755 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:06,389 might identify with that. 756 00:24:06,390 --> 00:24:08,189 And I create a different kind of cattery. 757 00:24:08,190 --> 00:24:10,109 I could say I'm an academic and some of 758 00:24:10,110 --> 00:24:12,359 their other identities in the room 759 00:24:12,360 --> 00:24:14,279 where you feel aligned to the same thing 760 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:15,509 seems to happen here. 761 00:24:15,510 --> 00:24:17,789 But what is really interesting is 762 00:24:17,790 --> 00:24:19,679 that the security researcher seems to be 763 00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:21,779 kind of a lifebelt you fall back to if 764 00:24:21,780 --> 00:24:22,889 you want to introduce yourself in a 765 00:24:22,890 --> 00:24:24,209 different kind of term. 766 00:24:24,210 --> 00:24:25,619 And I think that is very interesting to 767 00:24:25,620 --> 00:24:26,620 think about. 768 00:24:27,270 --> 00:24:29,099 So in that regard, it's like a Mobius 769 00:24:29,100 --> 00:24:30,239 ribbon. 770 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:32,039 Why am I using this idea? 771 00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:33,899 Because, you know, the flexible idea of 772 00:24:33,900 --> 00:24:36,179 identity, people always consider identity 773 00:24:36,180 --> 00:24:37,079 as being like a coin. 774 00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:38,729 You add on one side you're black or 775 00:24:38,730 --> 00:24:40,709 you're white, but in fact, you're like a 776 00:24:40,710 --> 00:24:42,149 hacker and the security researcher. 777 00:24:42,150 --> 00:24:43,889 You have day jobs like I don't know what 778 00:24:43,890 --> 00:24:46,229 you're doing when you leave today. 779 00:24:46,230 --> 00:24:48,239 Tomorrow you might be a tester, be like a 780 00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:50,099 software engineer or anything like that, 781 00:24:50,100 --> 00:24:51,479 but you can have different shifting 782 00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:52,439 identities. And there's a really 783 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:53,579 important aspect. 784 00:24:53,580 --> 00:24:55,859 Research has have to acknowledge 785 00:24:55,860 --> 00:24:58,589 that that is not just like one thing. 786 00:24:58,590 --> 00:25:00,929 And that kind of stable 787 00:25:00,930 --> 00:25:02,369 and really important is here that there's 788 00:25:02,370 --> 00:25:04,739 two dynamics, which is a consequence 789 00:25:04,740 --> 00:25:06,599 of like the hacker idea being portrayed 790 00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:08,519 as that negative. On the one side, you 791 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:10,059 can't call yourself a hacker because it 792 00:25:10,060 --> 00:25:11,699 has negative connotations. 793 00:25:11,700 --> 00:25:13,259 And that was seen by people being 794 00:25:13,260 --> 00:25:15,209 basically saying, oh, I would never talk 795 00:25:15,210 --> 00:25:16,889 to a politician using that term. 796 00:25:16,890 --> 00:25:18,809 But the other thing is meritocracy. 797 00:25:18,810 --> 00:25:20,909 Everyone here, it's like I give you 798 00:25:20,910 --> 00:25:22,169 an example. 799 00:25:22,170 --> 00:25:23,879 I would you know, people would never call 800 00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:25,109 themselves experts. 801 00:25:25,110 --> 00:25:26,499 You would be like, absolutely. 802 00:25:26,500 --> 00:25:29,069 And that was a word someone use. 803 00:25:29,070 --> 00:25:30,809 It would be presumptuous to call yourself 804 00:25:30,810 --> 00:25:32,729 a hacker. And that's the same thing. 805 00:25:32,730 --> 00:25:34,169 There's must be something everybody 806 00:25:34,170 --> 00:25:35,819 acknowledges. Be on a hacker conference. 807 00:25:35,820 --> 00:25:37,589 But not not a lot of people would run 808 00:25:37,590 --> 00:25:38,639 around saying, I'm a hacker. 809 00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:40,769 You feel aligned and associated with your 810 00:25:40,770 --> 00:25:43,049 identity, but you're not, like, fully 811 00:25:43,050 --> 00:25:44,939 in it. And there's a similar equivalent, 812 00:25:44,940 --> 00:25:47,169 like an LGBT member in Russia 813 00:25:47,170 --> 00:25:48,719 currently would not run around 814 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:51,479 necessarily saying, oh, I'm gay. 815 00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:54,389 But they feel associated with LGBT 816 00:25:54,390 --> 00:25:55,739 and that dislike that negative 817 00:25:55,740 --> 00:25:57,689 connotation aspect, the meritocracy 818 00:25:57,690 --> 00:25:59,569 aspect. Is more related to the expert 819 00:25:59,570 --> 00:26:01,729 aspect that, you know, you can't use that 820 00:26:01,730 --> 00:26:03,400 term because, you know, you would be 821 00:26:04,460 --> 00:26:05,689 considered like an asshole. 822 00:26:07,130 --> 00:26:09,289 And so 823 00:26:09,290 --> 00:26:10,879 that is like the way they resist by 824 00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:12,889 having that they step back word of 825 00:26:12,890 --> 00:26:14,419 security research or anything which is 826 00:26:14,420 --> 00:26:16,659 currently acknowledged as legitimate. 827 00:26:16,660 --> 00:26:18,859 Now, coming to the second theme in 828 00:26:18,860 --> 00:26:20,539 security and what happens here, as I 829 00:26:20,540 --> 00:26:22,579 said, the threat to privacy and security 830 00:26:22,580 --> 00:26:23,989 leads to an increase of insecurity. 831 00:26:23,990 --> 00:26:25,349 It's a vicious circle. 832 00:26:25,350 --> 00:26:27,469 And what happens externally is erosion 833 00:26:27,470 --> 00:26:29,119 of the rule of law. 834 00:26:29,120 --> 00:26:30,679 I don't need to say a lot about that. 835 00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:31,999 I mean, all of the talks basically 836 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:33,229 emphasize this. 837 00:26:33,230 --> 00:26:34,609 And people talked about the rights are 838 00:26:34,610 --> 00:26:35,789 getting circumscribed. 839 00:26:35,790 --> 00:26:37,369 Internet has been criminalized. 840 00:26:37,370 --> 00:26:39,259 But the really important bit is like my 841 00:26:39,260 --> 00:26:40,579 participants emphasize, that this is a 842 00:26:40,580 --> 00:26:41,689 fallacy. 843 00:26:41,690 --> 00:26:43,399 Risks are inevitable. 844 00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:45,079 People would choose a false sense of 845 00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:47,809 security over the necessity of privacy. 846 00:26:47,810 --> 00:26:50,299 And they are basically criticizing 847 00:26:50,300 --> 00:26:51,589 that. Their version of law is basically 848 00:26:51,590 --> 00:26:54,739 you have to choose either security or 849 00:26:54,740 --> 00:26:55,939 like freedom. 850 00:26:55,940 --> 00:26:58,009 And that is a really like that is 851 00:26:58,010 --> 00:26:59,569 a very important aspect of what's going 852 00:26:59,570 --> 00:27:01,399 on in the interviews. 853 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:02,989 They also emphasize in the course of this 854 00:27:02,990 --> 00:27:05,089 the exaggeration, overestimation of 855 00:27:05,090 --> 00:27:06,889 threats. We currently see everything is 856 00:27:06,890 --> 00:27:08,449 hyped up. And I love that quote. 857 00:27:08,450 --> 00:27:11,029 Like General Alexander goes Anonymous, 858 00:27:11,030 --> 00:27:12,469 could take down the power grids. 859 00:27:12,470 --> 00:27:13,429 Bullshit. 860 00:27:13,430 --> 00:27:14,689 It's complete bullshit. 861 00:27:14,690 --> 00:27:16,609 It's so far from anybody's technological 862 00:27:16,610 --> 00:27:18,919 capability and we see that quite often. 863 00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:20,359 I love also the quote because I could use 864 00:27:20,360 --> 00:27:22,429 bullshit in a context and not need to 865 00:27:22,430 --> 00:27:24,140 basically justify myself using it. 866 00:27:25,310 --> 00:27:28,759 But like, they basically use 867 00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:31,459 the idea that, like you, you 868 00:27:31,460 --> 00:27:33,529 really instrumentalise scapegoat 869 00:27:33,530 --> 00:27:35,659 hacker in a context of like a political 870 00:27:35,660 --> 00:27:38,389 speech to make the average 871 00:27:38,390 --> 00:27:40,939 citizen or person be 872 00:27:40,940 --> 00:27:42,979 thinking, oh, I need to do this or that, 873 00:27:42,980 --> 00:27:45,109 and we need to be scared of them. 874 00:27:45,110 --> 00:27:47,359 But the really important bit is like 875 00:27:47,360 --> 00:27:48,589 that. 876 00:27:48,590 --> 00:27:50,629 People think we need to look skeptical 877 00:27:50,630 --> 00:27:52,099 when the government calls something a 878 00:27:52,100 --> 00:27:53,959 security threat and that they have 879 00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:55,609 mistaken the security issue because 880 00:27:57,290 --> 00:27:59,959 this results in a climate of suspicion 881 00:27:59,960 --> 00:28:02,389 both externally by politicians 882 00:28:02,390 --> 00:28:04,129 and others, but also within that 883 00:28:04,130 --> 00:28:05,599 community. 884 00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:08,629 People said a lot about like 885 00:28:08,630 --> 00:28:10,789 that. They have like problems 886 00:28:10,790 --> 00:28:12,529 getting stopped at airports are anxious 887 00:28:12,530 --> 00:28:14,479 when people ring the doorbell or face 888 00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:15,979 personal repercussions, such as like 889 00:28:15,980 --> 00:28:17,509 freedom of travel. 890 00:28:17,510 --> 00:28:19,819 And that is really interesting 891 00:28:19,820 --> 00:28:21,269 that the participants basically feel that 892 00:28:21,270 --> 00:28:22,939 form of losing control over their own 893 00:28:22,940 --> 00:28:24,859 safety, privacy and independence, which 894 00:28:24,860 --> 00:28:26,509 is fascinating by our community, which is 895 00:28:26,510 --> 00:28:28,249 so focused on like being in charge of 896 00:28:28,250 --> 00:28:30,469 their own like devices, 897 00:28:30,470 --> 00:28:32,419 their technology, etc.. 898 00:28:32,420 --> 00:28:34,609 So what happens, 899 00:28:34,610 --> 00:28:36,109 therefore, is a resistance to these 900 00:28:36,110 --> 00:28:38,329 processes is 901 00:28:38,330 --> 00:28:40,279 the investment in more security. 902 00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:42,889 And that is a really, really insightful 903 00:28:42,890 --> 00:28:44,509 way of like talking about it. 904 00:28:44,510 --> 00:28:46,189 And I think more people need to 905 00:28:46,190 --> 00:28:48,359 acknowledge that hacking hacktivism is 906 00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:49,910 a form of an ecosystem. 907 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:52,849 People are participants basically said 908 00:28:52,850 --> 00:28:54,919 they are the security in the 909 00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:55,939 system. 910 00:28:55,940 --> 00:28:58,099 So while politicians talk about hackers 911 00:28:58,100 --> 00:28:59,689 as this negative threat, as the 912 00:28:59,690 --> 00:29:01,759 frightening aspect, participants say, 913 00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:03,049 for instance, hackers would find a 914 00:29:03,050 --> 00:29:04,819 security loophole. The manufacturers then 915 00:29:04,820 --> 00:29:06,259 forced to close the security loophole 916 00:29:06,260 --> 00:29:08,719 where other hackers or the same hackers 917 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:10,279 come along and would find new security 918 00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:11,719 loopholes. It's a vicious circle. 919 00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:13,399 It's an ongoing process of improvement, 920 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:14,599 awareness raising. 921 00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:16,489 And a participant said the equivalent 922 00:29:16,490 --> 00:29:17,929 would be product testing. 923 00:29:17,930 --> 00:29:20,599 Nobody would think of like 924 00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:22,579 using a car where the belt hasn't been 925 00:29:22,580 --> 00:29:25,069 tested, but like hacking 926 00:29:25,070 --> 00:29:27,139 that is considered as like that problem 927 00:29:27,140 --> 00:29:29,209 where you can try to 928 00:29:29,210 --> 00:29:30,769 find a security loophole because, you 929 00:29:30,770 --> 00:29:32,959 know, we would rather not know. 930 00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:34,609 And then the really important part comes 931 00:29:34,610 --> 00:29:36,769 here, the irresponsibility aspect 932 00:29:36,770 --> 00:29:38,869 about it. So my participants emphasized 933 00:29:38,870 --> 00:29:40,489 it's not my responsibility. 934 00:29:40,490 --> 00:29:42,709 I'm not liable for, you know, the 935 00:29:42,710 --> 00:29:43,639 loopholes. 936 00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:45,229 I'm not increasing the risk. 937 00:29:45,230 --> 00:29:47,539 The risk is already inevitable. 938 00:29:47,540 --> 00:29:49,219 Software has already or hardware has 939 00:29:49,220 --> 00:29:51,289 already been produced, 940 00:29:51,290 --> 00:29:52,849 which has a flaw. 941 00:29:52,850 --> 00:29:54,889 And so, for instance, about this one said 942 00:29:54,890 --> 00:29:56,839 not to hack is the biggest security risk 943 00:29:56,840 --> 00:29:59,419 of all because someone will exploit 944 00:29:59,420 --> 00:30:00,379 the thing. 945 00:30:00,380 --> 00:30:01,639 So and I think that is an important 946 00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:04,099 aspect to to think about, because if 947 00:30:04,100 --> 00:30:06,079 I look at data from politicians, they are 948 00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:08,149 thinking rather not tell 949 00:30:08,150 --> 00:30:10,489 the security loophole exists, 950 00:30:10,490 --> 00:30:12,709 whereas they basically emphasize, no, 951 00:30:12,710 --> 00:30:13,939 it already is there. 952 00:30:13,940 --> 00:30:16,129 We need to basically make it seen 953 00:30:16,130 --> 00:30:17,569 by everyone. 954 00:30:17,570 --> 00:30:19,309 And I thought that was a new way of 955 00:30:19,310 --> 00:30:21,619 thinking of security and insecurity and 956 00:30:21,620 --> 00:30:22,620 a contact. 957 00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:25,429 The other aspect is that this personal 958 00:30:25,430 --> 00:30:27,559 security, they are emphasizing I mean, we 959 00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:29,869 all use signal tor whatever. 960 00:30:29,870 --> 00:30:31,729 So this investment, individual security 961 00:30:31,730 --> 00:30:33,949 of using encryption software, disguised 962 00:30:33,950 --> 00:30:36,169 one's personal identity stands in huge 963 00:30:36,170 --> 00:30:38,269 contrast to what the state is currently 964 00:30:38,270 --> 00:30:39,259 trying to do. 965 00:30:39,260 --> 00:30:41,419 So I used I did interviews 966 00:30:41,420 --> 00:30:43,459 with people working the cybersecurity 967 00:30:43,460 --> 00:30:45,409 sector like the managements, and they 968 00:30:45,410 --> 00:30:47,869 often say like centralization. 969 00:30:47,870 --> 00:30:49,129 They rather have everything like 970 00:30:49,130 --> 00:30:51,379 basically in their own hands, 971 00:30:51,380 --> 00:30:53,749 sell that product to a customer 972 00:30:53,750 --> 00:30:55,549 and then like make sure that everything 973 00:30:55,550 --> 00:30:57,139 is safe, but the customer has nothing to 974 00:30:57,140 --> 00:30:59,329 do and. The other way happens here, like 975 00:30:59,330 --> 00:31:00,559 they are completely saying, I want to 976 00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:02,449 take security in my own hands. 977 00:31:02,450 --> 00:31:04,549 So there is 978 00:31:04,550 --> 00:31:06,439 like that contradicts like the security 979 00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:08,059 perception we see with, like other 980 00:31:08,060 --> 00:31:09,829 actors. And that means just that we can't 981 00:31:09,830 --> 00:31:11,479 really find a way of, like, talking to 982 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:12,480 each other. 983 00:31:13,100 --> 00:31:15,219 And I personally, when I was 984 00:31:15,220 --> 00:31:17,119 in that regard, if it's not somehow then 985 00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:19,219 also helping the personal security of the 986 00:31:19,220 --> 00:31:21,199 public security that hackers and 987 00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:22,669 hacktivists are so emphasizing this 988 00:31:22,670 --> 00:31:24,739 personal security for themselves, because 989 00:31:24,740 --> 00:31:26,869 as I just said, we have tools 990 00:31:26,870 --> 00:31:28,859 like Tor Signal, et cetera. 991 00:31:29,900 --> 00:31:32,359 OK, coming to the last 992 00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:34,429 theme, which 993 00:31:34,430 --> 00:31:36,199 is really emerging from that 994 00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:38,539 technological side, I just emphasized 995 00:31:38,540 --> 00:31:40,819 that they are not just developing 996 00:31:40,820 --> 00:31:42,169 technological alternatives for 997 00:31:42,170 --> 00:31:43,879 participants, but they also engage in 998 00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:45,949 political the political system work 999 00:31:45,950 --> 00:31:47,869 closely. So system here just doesn't 1000 00:31:47,870 --> 00:31:49,609 refer just to political system, but 1001 00:31:49,610 --> 00:31:51,319 technological system as well. 1002 00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:52,969 And so the mistrust in authorities and 1003 00:31:52,970 --> 00:31:54,229 hierarchies, that is the argument that 1004 00:31:54,230 --> 00:31:56,359 this is in this theme is 1005 00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:58,039 basically leading to certain kind of 1006 00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:00,529 activist forums to resistance 1007 00:32:00,530 --> 00:32:01,729 form. 1008 00:32:01,730 --> 00:32:03,859 And that applies so technically and 1009 00:32:03,860 --> 00:32:06,349 so politically, so externally. 1010 00:32:06,350 --> 00:32:08,059 What happens is they are not perceived as 1011 00:32:08,060 --> 00:32:09,949 like the same kind of equivalent to other 1012 00:32:09,950 --> 00:32:13,249 actors. And that is obvious because 1013 00:32:13,250 --> 00:32:15,739 we see we all know the wonderful term 1014 00:32:15,740 --> 00:32:18,079 public private partnership, 1015 00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:20,149 but that misses the third actors, 1016 00:32:20,150 --> 00:32:21,769 according to participants, and that is 1017 00:32:21,770 --> 00:32:23,899 the civil society, which my participants 1018 00:32:23,900 --> 00:32:25,969 consider hackers to be part of 1019 00:32:25,970 --> 00:32:27,559 and hack this to be part of. 1020 00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:29,029 So what they criticize is in the 1021 00:32:29,030 --> 00:32:30,469 political sphere is the lack. 1022 00:32:30,470 --> 00:32:32,599 So what happens is the lack of 1023 00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:34,669 ability to get hurt because governments 1024 00:32:34,670 --> 00:32:36,829 are out of touch with the definition of a 1025 00:32:36,830 --> 00:32:38,869 hacker and what it would be. 1026 00:32:38,870 --> 00:32:41,509 So I quote a participant said, 1027 00:32:41,510 --> 00:32:43,729 that's all just old man with 1028 00:32:43,730 --> 00:32:45,949 bullet points or 1029 00:32:45,950 --> 00:32:47,959 they are like other people said, for 1030 00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:49,639 instance, they're like my parents. 1031 00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:51,229 They happily get a tablet and learn how 1032 00:32:51,230 --> 00:32:53,269 to use Google, but that's it. 1033 00:32:53,270 --> 00:32:55,729 So the lack of knowledge of politicians 1034 00:32:55,730 --> 00:32:57,799 is also criticized, 1035 00:32:57,800 --> 00:32:59,179 and that also makes it hard for them to 1036 00:32:59,180 --> 00:33:00,799 get involved in those two dynamics. 1037 00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:02,119 And that's the reason why politicians 1038 00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:03,859 often used in the street to get like help 1039 00:33:03,860 --> 00:33:05,929 and like writing policy 1040 00:33:05,930 --> 00:33:07,579 statements, as we all know. 1041 00:33:07,580 --> 00:33:09,289 And but the problem is the industry is 1042 00:33:09,290 --> 00:33:11,179 focusing also on the wrong kind of 1043 00:33:11,180 --> 00:33:13,189 experts. According to my participants, 1044 00:33:13,190 --> 00:33:15,409 they talk about business, blah. 1045 00:33:15,410 --> 00:33:17,599 And I guess everybody 1046 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:19,159 here in this room knows who they're 1047 00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:20,509 talking about. They're talking about the 1048 00:33:20,510 --> 00:33:22,849 management who are like perhaps like 1049 00:33:22,850 --> 00:33:24,289 have studied computer science, been in 1050 00:33:24,290 --> 00:33:26,479 the business for like 50 or 30 years 1051 00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:27,769 now for 30 years. 1052 00:33:27,770 --> 00:33:30,019 And now there have been like out of touch 1053 00:33:30,020 --> 00:33:32,449 with the technology for my participants. 1054 00:33:32,450 --> 00:33:33,919 And they're more interested in, like 1055 00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:36,499 gaining like more 1056 00:33:36,500 --> 00:33:38,509 income rather than like on the technology 1057 00:33:38,510 --> 00:33:40,879 itself. And it's a huge, huge 1058 00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:43,189 moneymaking machine we're producing. 1059 00:33:43,190 --> 00:33:44,959 And a really big critique is on the 1060 00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:46,039 revolving door. 1061 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:48,179 So what I mean with that, remember, this 1062 00:33:48,180 --> 00:33:50,299 was me with that is like this, how these 1063 00:33:50,300 --> 00:33:52,099 two spheres basically reproduce 1064 00:33:52,100 --> 00:33:53,959 themselves. You have people going to 1065 00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:56,089 secret services and 1066 00:33:56,090 --> 00:33:57,919 working. They're stepping out, going into 1067 00:33:57,920 --> 00:33:59,839 industry, probably selling the government 1068 00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:01,969 products and like then 1069 00:34:01,970 --> 00:34:04,099 making money with it and going back 1070 00:34:04,100 --> 00:34:06,419 into the political sphere 1071 00:34:06,420 --> 00:34:08,569 and in a certain 1072 00:34:08,570 --> 00:34:09,738 kind of. 1073 00:34:09,739 --> 00:34:11,919 Yeah, in the NSA or 1074 00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:13,369 GHQ or whatever. 1075 00:34:13,370 --> 00:34:15,408 So there's that revolving that they are 1076 00:34:15,409 --> 00:34:17,329 basically two spheres, but they're 1077 00:34:17,330 --> 00:34:19,399 missing the third actor. 1078 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:20,629 The other thing is what happens to 1079 00:34:20,630 --> 00:34:22,789 skepticism and that relates to 1080 00:34:22,790 --> 00:34:24,709 power and privileges, both on a technical 1081 00:34:24,710 --> 00:34:26,269 side but also on a political side. 1082 00:34:26,270 --> 00:34:28,009 And I think that was really insightful, 1083 00:34:28,010 --> 00:34:29,178 at least for political science like 1084 00:34:29,179 --> 00:34:31,309 myself, because like there's not just 1085 00:34:31,310 --> 00:34:33,019 a doubt in the network infrastructure. 1086 00:34:33,020 --> 00:34:35,178 So, for instance, people said, 1087 00:34:35,179 --> 00:34:37,249 you know, the Internet is very, very 1088 00:34:37,250 --> 00:34:39,049 valuable at every single level and it's 1089 00:34:39,050 --> 00:34:41,539 screwed over already. 1090 00:34:41,540 --> 00:34:43,459 But there's also that comparison between, 1091 00:34:43,460 --> 00:34:46,069 you know, you can attack like a technical 1092 00:34:46,070 --> 00:34:47,899 system on the top level, which would get 1093 00:34:47,900 --> 00:34:48,948 you access to everything. 1094 00:34:48,949 --> 00:34:50,149 But the same thing would apply to 1095 00:34:50,150 --> 00:34:51,049 political level. 1096 00:34:51,050 --> 00:34:53,329 If you bribe Angela 1097 00:34:53,330 --> 00:34:55,789 Merkel now, you know, you could achieve 1098 00:34:55,790 --> 00:34:57,319 higher things as well. 1099 00:34:57,320 --> 00:34:59,359 And I think that the relation between 1100 00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:01,249 hacking, not just as the technological 1101 00:35:01,250 --> 00:35:03,709 aspect and hacking also like a political 1102 00:35:03,710 --> 00:35:05,959 sphere is important to emphasize because 1103 00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:07,639 it is taking place. 1104 00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:10,099 And so the focus of decentralization, 1105 00:35:10,100 --> 00:35:12,139 distribution, Tetrarchy, that is one 1106 00:35:12,140 --> 00:35:13,909 aspect which we see like on a 1107 00:35:13,910 --> 00:35:16,069 technological side, but also to emphasize 1108 00:35:16,070 --> 00:35:17,539 on politically should be done. 1109 00:35:17,540 --> 00:35:19,369 And the best example, of course, is 1110 00:35:19,370 --> 00:35:21,619 anonymous because the media 1111 00:35:21,620 --> 00:35:24,199 still struggles to define them and 1112 00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:25,819 talk about them. 1113 00:35:25,820 --> 00:35:27,439 The other aspect is hypocrisy. 1114 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:29,239 And there's one dynamic about like 1115 00:35:29,240 --> 00:35:30,709 interviews emphasized that there's a 1116 00:35:30,710 --> 00:35:32,959 public private sector applying hacking 1117 00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:35,209 methods. For instance, Apex did that 1118 00:35:35,210 --> 00:35:36,739 with the U.S. 1119 00:35:36,740 --> 00:35:38,449 against Pirate Bay. 1120 00:35:38,450 --> 00:35:40,759 But there's also other examples, like on 1121 00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:42,499 anonymous servers, et cetera. 1122 00:35:42,500 --> 00:35:44,389 But this applies a double standard 1123 00:35:44,390 --> 00:35:45,409 because participants were really 1124 00:35:45,410 --> 00:35:47,659 frustrated because they government 1125 00:35:47,660 --> 00:35:49,909 obviously have security specialists 1126 00:35:49,910 --> 00:35:51,829 or security researchers who are allowed 1127 00:35:51,830 --> 00:35:54,139 to do this, but they 1128 00:35:54,140 --> 00:35:56,389 use are still applicable 1129 00:35:56,390 --> 00:35:58,299 to the same laws, but. 1130 00:35:58,300 --> 00:36:00,519 But they they suddenly have to license 1131 00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:02,499 to hack, so to say, and they really 1132 00:36:02,500 --> 00:36:04,359 wonder, what is the security problem? 1133 00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:06,459 Because like if people say we can't use 1134 00:36:06,460 --> 00:36:08,289 deadly attack, is it the activity 1135 00:36:08,290 --> 00:36:09,369 decriminalize? 1136 00:36:09,370 --> 00:36:11,719 Is it the actor or is it the intention? 1137 00:36:11,720 --> 00:36:12,609 And that is not clear. 1138 00:36:12,610 --> 00:36:13,899 And I think that is a discussion we need 1139 00:36:13,900 --> 00:36:14,889 to have. 1140 00:36:14,890 --> 00:36:16,779 And the other aspect is the hypocrisy 1141 00:36:16,780 --> 00:36:18,609 around, like, for instance, exploits 1142 00:36:18,610 --> 00:36:20,169 because governments are allowed to have 1143 00:36:20,170 --> 00:36:22,419 them to portray serial days and 1144 00:36:22,420 --> 00:36:23,829 they don't operate in the legal 1145 00:36:23,830 --> 00:36:25,449 framework. They try the community to 1146 00:36:25,450 --> 00:36:26,709 basically put in. 1147 00:36:26,710 --> 00:36:28,889 And so for for 1148 00:36:28,890 --> 00:36:31,299 my participants, is then the preservation 1149 00:36:31,300 --> 00:36:32,859 of security, not according to Internet, 1150 00:36:32,860 --> 00:36:34,719 not a shirt by intelligence service, but 1151 00:36:34,720 --> 00:36:37,209 by this community here. 1152 00:36:37,210 --> 00:36:39,489 So and how did they resist 1153 00:36:39,490 --> 00:36:41,379 this process? 1154 00:36:41,380 --> 00:36:42,819 One aspect and I think that is very 1155 00:36:42,820 --> 00:36:44,889 interesting, perhaps you perhaps 1156 00:36:44,890 --> 00:36:46,719 this is something people know here, but 1157 00:36:46,720 --> 00:36:48,819 have never been really focused or made 1158 00:36:48,820 --> 00:36:50,949 aware of, no collaboration, 1159 00:36:50,950 --> 00:36:52,599 and as the rejection to work for the 1160 00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:54,639 state institution like police or 1161 00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:56,559 intelligence agencies, and that is, 1162 00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:58,449 according to my persistence, very strong 1163 00:36:58,450 --> 00:37:00,909 in Germany, where you basically 1164 00:37:00,910 --> 00:37:02,769 would not like work for them or should 1165 00:37:02,770 --> 00:37:03,939 not work for them. 1166 00:37:03,940 --> 00:37:06,219 And they are aware that, you know, NSA 1167 00:37:06,220 --> 00:37:08,029 employees or did you say you or the 1168 00:37:08,030 --> 00:37:10,149 institution employees, hackers and that 1169 00:37:10,150 --> 00:37:11,319 they have them. 1170 00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:12,429 But there's a difference. 1171 00:37:12,430 --> 00:37:14,259 So they are distinct here ideologically, 1172 00:37:14,260 --> 00:37:16,179 again, between like different kind of 1173 00:37:16,180 --> 00:37:17,079 people. 1174 00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:18,699 And there's really an important aspect of 1175 00:37:18,700 --> 00:37:20,549 internal disciplinary, internal policing. 1176 00:37:20,550 --> 00:37:22,209 And a president said, if you're working 1177 00:37:22,210 --> 00:37:23,679 for the FBI and the United States of 1178 00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:25,509 America because you think the technology 1179 00:37:25,510 --> 00:37:27,249 they are using is absolutely awesome 1180 00:37:27,250 --> 00:37:29,349 because you're technically interested, 1181 00:37:29,350 --> 00:37:30,969 there's an app that is absolutely 1182 00:37:30,970 --> 00:37:33,099 legitimate, independently of 1183 00:37:33,100 --> 00:37:35,019 the purpose. However, if you do the same 1184 00:37:35,020 --> 00:37:37,179 thing in Germany, then people will kick 1185 00:37:37,180 --> 00:37:38,889 you out of. And that meant the 1186 00:37:38,890 --> 00:37:39,969 communication Congress. 1187 00:37:39,970 --> 00:37:41,259 You're simply not allowed to think that 1188 00:37:41,260 --> 00:37:42,969 is is awesome because it's evil. 1189 00:37:42,970 --> 00:37:45,069 So what this person basically emphasized 1190 00:37:45,070 --> 00:37:46,269 is that there's certain kind of 1191 00:37:46,270 --> 00:37:47,979 differences. And people spoke about an 1192 00:37:47,980 --> 00:37:50,019 American hacker, a European hacker. 1193 00:37:50,020 --> 00:37:51,279 There's a different kind of mindsets. 1194 00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:52,719 And it makes it hard to speak about a 1195 00:37:52,720 --> 00:37:54,279 hacker community, at least for me as a 1196 00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:55,989 researcher. And I'm still struggling with 1197 00:37:55,990 --> 00:37:57,759 how to phrase around that. 1198 00:37:57,760 --> 00:37:59,379 But there seems to be that dynamic of 1199 00:37:59,380 --> 00:38:01,779 like how to keep it clean again 1200 00:38:01,780 --> 00:38:03,879 here in this aspect and to last 1201 00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:06,159 dynamics are one aspect 1202 00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:07,129 is polarization. 1203 00:38:07,130 --> 00:38:09,189 So one is that the hacker scene has 1204 00:38:09,190 --> 00:38:10,719 become politicized over the course of the 1205 00:38:10,720 --> 00:38:12,339 last years. And we see that very well. 1206 00:38:12,340 --> 00:38:14,619 Like yesterday in Frank's talk was like 1207 00:38:14,620 --> 00:38:16,689 how the hacker community is involved in 1208 00:38:16,690 --> 00:38:18,549 politics and looks at social and 1209 00:38:18,550 --> 00:38:19,959 political questions. 1210 00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:21,579 And they also think of themselves, my 1211 00:38:21,580 --> 00:38:23,379 participants, as a counterpart to the 1212 00:38:23,380 --> 00:38:25,029 industry, which is so influential, like 1213 00:38:25,030 --> 00:38:26,919 more than moneymaking machine rather than 1214 00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:29,209 like the social and political output. 1215 00:38:29,210 --> 00:38:31,059 And so people are involved in advocacy. 1216 00:38:31,060 --> 00:38:32,769 I mean, you've seen the noisy square, 1217 00:38:32,770 --> 00:38:34,629 like with EFF, et cetera. 1218 00:38:34,630 --> 00:38:36,879 So to support digital rights online. 1219 00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:38,889 And the other aspect is hacktivism. 1220 00:38:38,890 --> 00:38:40,129 And that is an interesting one. 1221 00:38:40,130 --> 00:38:41,949 And I hadn't thought of that before I 1222 00:38:41,950 --> 00:38:43,439 started this research like that. 1223 00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:44,859 So there seems to be a two way dynamic 1224 00:38:44,860 --> 00:38:47,079 and one aspect for the hacker community 1225 00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:48,639 who has over the course of the last 1226 00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:51,819 years, decades become politicized. 1227 00:38:51,820 --> 00:38:53,769 But according to my participants, there's 1228 00:38:53,770 --> 00:38:55,779 a new kind of a younger generation online 1229 00:38:55,780 --> 00:38:57,639 which they call hacktivists, or I mean, 1230 00:38:57,640 --> 00:38:59,229 the term as technology is very 1231 00:38:59,230 --> 00:39:01,659 controversial. But what they mean is 1232 00:39:01,660 --> 00:39:03,829 that, one, you can have a hacker 1233 00:39:03,830 --> 00:39:05,509 group becoming politicized, too. 1234 00:39:05,510 --> 00:39:07,089 There's a new dimension of like people 1235 00:39:07,090 --> 00:39:09,279 coming in, calling themselves hacktivists 1236 00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:11,409 and free is also that I would 1237 00:39:11,410 --> 00:39:12,969 probably consider myself as both. 1238 00:39:12,970 --> 00:39:14,799 Yet I'm coming initially more from the 1239 00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:16,409 traditional hacking scene. 1240 00:39:16,410 --> 00:39:18,519 So the third aspect is then basically 1241 00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:21,069 that people have focused, have become 1242 00:39:21,070 --> 00:39:22,599 like hacker and activist at the same 1243 00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:23,600 time. 1244 00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:25,839 And interesting about the younger 1245 00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:27,639 generation aspect is then that would 1246 00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:29,829 explain why people a lot of like old 1247 00:39:29,830 --> 00:39:31,389 school hackers, whatever you mean with 1248 00:39:31,390 --> 00:39:33,699 that. But at least my participants 1249 00:39:33,700 --> 00:39:35,769 would think like why they are not 1250 00:39:35,770 --> 00:39:37,839 that open to that term because 1251 00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:39,729 it's like different suddenly. 1252 00:39:39,730 --> 00:39:41,529 And it's also a way to counterbalance the 1253 00:39:41,530 --> 00:39:43,569 devaluation of traditional protest form 1254 00:39:43,570 --> 00:39:45,789 that is currently taking place, because 1255 00:39:45,790 --> 00:39:47,229 you can do it demonstrations, a lot of 1256 00:39:47,230 --> 00:39:49,119 you know, and then you can still 1257 00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:51,339 basically not 1258 00:39:51,340 --> 00:39:52,449 get anything done. 1259 00:39:52,450 --> 00:39:54,519 So activism might be that like option 1260 00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:56,199 out of the process. 1261 00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:58,449 So that was a lot of information 1262 00:39:58,450 --> 00:40:00,519 to take in and to break it down 1263 00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:02,199 quickly. So we talked about identity and 1264 00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:04,059 security system and there's different 1265 00:40:04,060 --> 00:40:05,709 kind of dynamic internally and 1266 00:40:05,710 --> 00:40:07,419 externally. So externally is what is 1267 00:40:07,420 --> 00:40:09,279 happening. So they have to criminological 1268 00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:11,319 order the creative cultural outsiders and 1269 00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:12,369 scapegoated. 1270 00:40:12,370 --> 00:40:14,529 And therefore internally, what happens is 1271 00:40:14,530 --> 00:40:15,579 they're broadening the term. 1272 00:40:15,580 --> 00:40:17,109 They distinguish themselves, they're 1273 00:40:17,110 --> 00:40:18,339 reclaiming the term. 1274 00:40:18,340 --> 00:40:20,289 And they also have that flexible identity 1275 00:40:20,290 --> 00:40:22,419 of like being both a security researcher, 1276 00:40:22,420 --> 00:40:25,089 hacker or whatever you call them as well. 1277 00:40:25,090 --> 00:40:26,739 That aspect is the other insecurity. 1278 00:40:26,740 --> 00:40:28,299 So the erosion of law, feeling a sense of 1279 00:40:28,300 --> 00:40:30,279 security, exaggeration, etc. 1280 00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:32,439 and how they contract that is 1281 00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:33,849 by basically emphasizing we are an 1282 00:40:33,850 --> 00:40:35,949 ecosystem, we belong all together. 1283 00:40:35,950 --> 00:40:37,779 There's a false sense of security. 1284 00:40:37,780 --> 00:40:39,609 We rather choose like basically security 1285 00:40:39,610 --> 00:40:41,829 or freedom, and 1286 00:40:41,830 --> 00:40:43,299 they invest in their own privacy and 1287 00:40:43,300 --> 00:40:44,469 security technology. 1288 00:40:44,470 --> 00:40:46,749 And last but not least system their basic 1289 00:40:46,750 --> 00:40:48,639 emphasizing that there's a missing third 1290 00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:51,189 factor which are and like skepticism 1291 00:40:51,190 --> 00:40:53,109 of societal and technology system and 1292 00:40:53,110 --> 00:40:54,159 hypocrisy. 1293 00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:56,019 And they resist, but basically no 1294 00:40:56,020 --> 00:40:57,689 collaboration with police. 1295 00:40:57,690 --> 00:40:59,549 Internal discipline and politicization 1296 00:40:59,550 --> 00:41:01,759 and hacktivism potentially. 1297 00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:04,109 OK, now you might say, 1298 00:41:04,110 --> 00:41:06,209 well, interesting, you are able 1299 00:41:06,210 --> 00:41:07,919 to talk for an hour, but what do we do 1300 00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:10,289 for that or what do we take for it 1301 00:41:10,290 --> 00:41:12,209 on one side? What I hope with this 1302 00:41:12,210 --> 00:41:14,309 research in my PhD 1303 00:41:14,310 --> 00:41:16,409 in general is to uncover the 1304 00:41:16,410 --> 00:41:18,389 practices that are currently taking place 1305 00:41:18,390 --> 00:41:20,789 in that wonderful cybersecurity 1306 00:41:20,790 --> 00:41:22,769 sector, whatever that is. 1307 00:41:22,770 --> 00:41:24,989 So I'm interested in to make sense 1308 00:41:24,990 --> 00:41:27,329 of that bullshit bingo that is being 1309 00:41:27,330 --> 00:41:29,909 taken place and to identify 1310 00:41:29,910 --> 00:41:32,159 what hacking activity means to different 1311 00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:34,439 actors and how that basically contradicts 1312 00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:35,519 or correlates. 1313 00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:36,839 And that's basically where I'm standing 1314 00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:38,219 with this research and why I did it with 1315 00:41:38,220 --> 00:41:39,479 those three actors. 1316 00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:41,639 And that's what I'm interested to do, 1317 00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:43,409 is basically it's a sociology of group of 1318 00:41:43,410 --> 00:41:46,049 people that so far have predominantly 1319 00:41:46,050 --> 00:41:48,449 been only talked about as 1320 00:41:48,450 --> 00:41:50,519 just make a quick Google search often 1321 00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:52,709 takes place the hackers, but nobody talks 1322 00:41:52,710 --> 00:41:54,579 about who they are on has approached 1323 00:41:54,580 --> 00:41:56,729 them. And I think one aspect I do 1324 00:41:56,730 --> 00:41:58,509 want to personally say I'm aware of 1325 00:41:58,510 --> 00:42:00,599 Fifi's blog about, like you shouldn't 1326 00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:01,949 talk to social scientists. 1327 00:42:01,950 --> 00:42:03,239 And I'm completely aware that there's a 1328 00:42:03,240 --> 00:42:04,619 lot of, like, scumbags out there who 1329 00:42:04,620 --> 00:42:06,269 probably do research for malicious 1330 00:42:06,270 --> 00:42:08,219 purpose. But I do think it's interesting 1331 00:42:08,220 --> 00:42:10,049 for a community that is so focused on, 1332 00:42:10,050 --> 00:42:11,729 like, you know, show me your data, show 1333 00:42:11,730 --> 00:42:14,219 me your code, your stats, you 1334 00:42:14,220 --> 00:42:16,379 you basically lose out of basically not 1335 00:42:16,380 --> 00:42:18,059 talking to social scientists, but 1336 00:42:18,060 --> 00:42:19,709 basically getting screwed over by all the 1337 00:42:19,710 --> 00:42:21,299 shitload of publications were basically 1338 00:42:21,300 --> 00:42:22,649 just say those hackers. 1339 00:42:23,970 --> 00:42:25,589 So I got that off my chest as well. 1340 00:42:31,630 --> 00:42:33,099 The other thing is like I want to do a 1341 00:42:33,100 --> 00:42:34,599 study and a critique on what the 1342 00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:36,699 securitization of this current system 1343 00:42:36,700 --> 00:42:38,859 does to groups of people, and this 1344 00:42:38,860 --> 00:42:39,879 is not just hackers. 1345 00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:42,159 It takes place with immigrants, with 1346 00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:43,599 any kind of group which is often 1347 00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:45,789 marginalized and want to counterbalance 1348 00:42:45,790 --> 00:42:47,889 the dominant research, folky, folksy. 1349 00:42:47,890 --> 00:42:49,479 And this was basically mentioned 1350 00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:51,999 yesterday by people say or 1351 00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:54,249 two days ago by conter storytelling. 1352 00:42:54,250 --> 00:42:55,599 And I think that is an important way of 1353 00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:57,249 approaching this research as well. 1354 00:42:57,250 --> 00:42:59,529 I want to the mystery demystify 1355 00:42:59,530 --> 00:43:00,969 the position of hackers and activists. 1356 00:43:00,970 --> 00:43:02,799 Perhaps, you know, there's a way of 1357 00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:04,689 reclaiming the word, making it not that 1358 00:43:04,690 --> 00:43:05,829 malicious again. 1359 00:43:05,830 --> 00:43:08,019 And last but not least also to glorifying 1360 00:43:08,020 --> 00:43:09,849 it like not making it that criminal 1361 00:43:09,850 --> 00:43:11,379 activity. My mom thinks I'm currently 1362 00:43:11,380 --> 00:43:13,569 always doing research on and 1363 00:43:13,570 --> 00:43:15,579 last but not least, an ability to develop 1364 00:43:15,580 --> 00:43:17,439 code in hacking is one possible and 1365 00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:19,809 valuable form of involvement of people 1366 00:43:19,810 --> 00:43:21,819 in the political and social discourse. 1367 00:43:21,820 --> 00:43:23,499 And I hope that this research contributes 1368 00:43:23,500 --> 00:43:25,209 to that. And I'm looking forward to your 1369 00:43:25,210 --> 00:43:26,529 questions. Answer sessions. 1370 00:43:26,530 --> 00:43:28,449 And I'm really like my attempt was 1371 00:43:28,450 --> 00:43:30,519 basically to talk about 1372 00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:32,139 not just do the research, but also come 1373 00:43:32,140 --> 00:43:33,549 here and basically show what I have 1374 00:43:33,550 --> 00:43:35,469 found. And I'm happy for any kind of 1375 00:43:35,470 --> 00:43:37,359 feedback, criticism you might have. 1376 00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:39,519 And I'm thank you for basically 1377 00:43:39,520 --> 00:43:40,520 listening. 1378 00:43:47,790 --> 00:43:49,919 Thanks for a great talk. 1379 00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:52,169 We now have about 15 minutes for Q&A, so 1380 00:43:52,170 --> 00:43:54,269 please, as always, line up at 1381 00:43:54,270 --> 00:43:56,219 the microphones here. 1382 00:43:56,220 --> 00:43:58,229 And also, of course, if you're out there 1383 00:43:58,230 --> 00:44:00,599 in cyberspace, you can go 1384 00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:02,429 on the ISC, you can go on Twitter to ask 1385 00:44:02,430 --> 00:44:04,499 questions. We have a cyber real 1386 00:44:04,500 --> 00:44:06,989 world interface here just for you. 1387 00:44:06,990 --> 00:44:08,849 And we'll actually start with the 1388 00:44:08,850 --> 00:44:09,850 Internet. 1389 00:44:10,500 --> 00:44:12,239 Yeah, the Internet has got one question 1390 00:44:12,240 --> 00:44:14,399 so far what are your views 1391 00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:16,469 about responsible disclosure agreements 1392 00:44:16,470 --> 00:44:18,359 in regards to hackers and criminal 1393 00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:20,489 activity, especially when the idea 1394 00:44:20,490 --> 00:44:22,530 also includes monetary rewards? 1395 00:44:25,190 --> 00:44:27,289 So the question is basically what 1396 00:44:27,290 --> 00:44:29,449 I think my opinion is on them 1397 00:44:29,450 --> 00:44:30,620 doing that. OK, 1398 00:44:31,850 --> 00:44:35,119 I guess that is an option. 1399 00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:37,129 My interest was not like to identify what 1400 00:44:37,130 --> 00:44:38,239 is correct or wrong. 1401 00:44:38,240 --> 00:44:39,799 My interest was more like, what do 1402 00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:41,479 hackers think that's currently happening 1403 00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:42,769 and how they perceived themselves. 1404 00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:45,769 Disclosure was an issue more in 1405 00:44:45,770 --> 00:44:47,000 whistleblowing terms. 1406 00:44:48,230 --> 00:44:50,329 The money aspect was not coming 1407 00:44:50,330 --> 00:44:51,949 into play. But what people said is that 1408 00:44:51,950 --> 00:44:54,529 they were sick of like like releasing 1409 00:44:54,530 --> 00:44:56,239 bugs and letting people know and then 1410 00:44:56,240 --> 00:44:57,919 nobody doing anything upon that. 1411 00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:00,079 So perhaps the money reward 1412 00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:02,179 is helpful. I don't know if that 1413 00:45:02,180 --> 00:45:03,709 is answering that question, but that was 1414 00:45:03,710 --> 00:45:05,179 what was in the data, basically. 1415 00:45:07,150 --> 00:45:08,909 Microphone number one, please. 1416 00:45:10,980 --> 00:45:13,349 Thank you for your talk in 1417 00:45:13,350 --> 00:45:15,569 one of your first slides, you contrasted 1418 00:45:15,570 --> 00:45:18,059 the term constructive, not with 1419 00:45:18,060 --> 00:45:21,059 destructive, but with deconstructive. 1420 00:45:21,060 --> 00:45:22,409 Was that intentional? 1421 00:45:22,410 --> 00:45:23,760 And is there a distinction? 1422 00:45:26,750 --> 00:45:28,849 I haven't thought of that. 1423 00:45:28,850 --> 00:45:31,099 I just felt like deconstruct so 1424 00:45:31,100 --> 00:45:33,229 constructive is also a term like in 1425 00:45:33,230 --> 00:45:34,939 social sciences, used to basically talk 1426 00:45:34,940 --> 00:45:36,949 about socially constructive aspects. 1427 00:45:36,950 --> 00:45:37,950 But 1428 00:45:39,020 --> 00:45:40,429 I didn't do it on purpose. 1429 00:45:40,430 --> 00:45:42,359 I just meant like basically to build a 1430 00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:44,269 breaker distinction that is often used 1431 00:45:44,270 --> 00:45:46,459 and perhaps it's a better way to 1432 00:45:46,460 --> 00:45:48,379 phrase it. But I think I will think about 1433 00:45:48,380 --> 00:45:50,719 that if if I should have used a different 1434 00:45:50,720 --> 00:45:51,720 term. 1435 00:45:55,170 --> 00:45:57,299 Number two, please, in 1436 00:45:57,300 --> 00:45:59,459 your talk, you in 1437 00:45:59,460 --> 00:46:01,289 your methodology, but also in the answers 1438 00:46:01,290 --> 00:46:03,329 of of your participants, you seem to 1439 00:46:03,330 --> 00:46:05,609 convolute the political statements 1440 00:46:05,610 --> 00:46:07,799 that are made by politicians and 1441 00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:10,139 the views of individual government 1442 00:46:10,140 --> 00:46:12,749 employees held internally. 1443 00:46:12,750 --> 00:46:14,549 And for someone who is not within 1444 00:46:14,550 --> 00:46:16,019 government, I can imagine that's 1445 00:46:16,020 --> 00:46:17,729 difficult to distinguish. 1446 00:46:17,730 --> 00:46:18,989 But my experience is that there's 1447 00:46:18,990 --> 00:46:20,969 actually quite a lot of disparity between 1448 00:46:20,970 --> 00:46:23,309 the two. Is there any incentive 1449 00:46:23,310 --> 00:46:25,049 that you detected or that you feel within 1450 00:46:25,050 --> 00:46:27,509 yourself to search for such disparities? 1451 00:46:27,510 --> 00:46:28,739 Well, the thing is, like this is not a 1452 00:46:28,740 --> 00:46:30,569 study on the political discourse. 1453 00:46:30,570 --> 00:46:32,339 All I was referring to is what my 1454 00:46:32,340 --> 00:46:34,619 participants talked is happening. 1455 00:46:34,620 --> 00:46:36,689 I did see that like in a previous study 1456 00:46:36,690 --> 00:46:37,859 on the political discourse and 1457 00:46:37,860 --> 00:46:39,269 acknowledge that you can work in an 1458 00:46:39,270 --> 00:46:41,339 organization because you just have to do 1459 00:46:41,340 --> 00:46:43,529 a daily work job where you get paid 1460 00:46:43,530 --> 00:46:45,599 for but don't agree with the organization 1461 00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:46,859 at the same thing is happening. 1462 00:46:46,860 --> 00:46:48,299 If that was aspect of security 1463 00:46:48,300 --> 00:46:50,639 researcher, people who perhaps 1464 00:46:50,640 --> 00:46:52,289 think of themselves as hackers belonging 1465 00:46:52,290 --> 00:46:54,149 to that community can work on a day to 1466 00:46:54,150 --> 00:46:56,129 day job in certain kind of industries 1467 00:46:56,130 --> 00:46:57,149 they completely hate. 1468 00:46:57,150 --> 00:46:59,099 You know, they can be in a company which 1469 00:46:59,100 --> 00:47:01,079 uses cyber all the time. 1470 00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:03,979 But the the 1471 00:47:03,980 --> 00:47:05,400 important aspect is basically 1472 00:47:06,450 --> 00:47:08,939 that they still you can still disagree 1473 00:47:08,940 --> 00:47:11,429 with that, but make a criticism 1474 00:47:11,430 --> 00:47:13,649 around the issue of like what goes 1475 00:47:13,650 --> 00:47:15,299 on. And that is what happened here. 1476 00:47:15,300 --> 00:47:16,799 But I didn't make a statement about the 1477 00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:18,959 politicians or the political discourse or 1478 00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:20,579 the people working government in itself. 1479 00:47:20,580 --> 00:47:22,499 It was more about the hacker hacktivists 1480 00:47:22,500 --> 00:47:24,089 site and they can potentially work in 1481 00:47:24,090 --> 00:47:25,199 governments. 1482 00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:27,209 But what seems more to happen is that 1483 00:47:27,210 --> 00:47:29,189 they would refuse to do that. 1484 00:47:29,190 --> 00:47:30,419 I don't know if that is answering the 1485 00:47:30,420 --> 00:47:30,719 question. 1486 00:47:30,720 --> 00:47:33,459 OK, not exactly, because what I'm 1487 00:47:33,460 --> 00:47:35,609 I'm Dutch and from the Netherlands, 1488 00:47:35,610 --> 00:47:36,929 my experience is that there's actually a 1489 00:47:36,930 --> 00:47:38,819 lot of interfacing with the government, 1490 00:47:38,820 --> 00:47:41,189 from the hacker community, not so much 1491 00:47:41,190 --> 00:47:43,439 having them work inside the government. 1492 00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:45,419 And that's an entire different interface 1493 00:47:45,420 --> 00:47:47,009 to the government than via the political 1494 00:47:47,010 --> 00:47:47,579 discourse. 1495 00:47:47,580 --> 00:47:49,019 Oh, yeah. No, you're absolutely right. 1496 00:47:49,020 --> 00:47:50,549 That takes place. I mean, the CCC is the 1497 00:47:50,550 --> 00:47:52,619 best example you can, you know, be 1498 00:47:52,620 --> 00:47:54,599 consulted for certain kind of policies. 1499 00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:55,979 If you want to have, like, the electoral 1500 00:47:55,980 --> 00:47:58,019 computer in your in your constituency or 1501 00:47:58,020 --> 00:47:59,819 not. Definitely know that that takes 1502 00:47:59,820 --> 00:48:01,379 place. And the people said that that was 1503 00:48:01,380 --> 00:48:03,029 the issue around the third actor being 1504 00:48:03,030 --> 00:48:05,129 missing. And they do try to 1505 00:48:05,130 --> 00:48:06,539 engage with that. And that was the slight 1506 00:48:06,540 --> 00:48:08,879 of politicization that they are involved 1507 00:48:08,880 --> 00:48:11,009 in activism and advocacy. 1508 00:48:11,010 --> 00:48:12,899 But there's still a suspicion and that is 1509 00:48:12,900 --> 00:48:14,549 completely legitimate. I hope that is not 1510 00:48:14,550 --> 00:48:15,059 answering that. 1511 00:48:15,060 --> 00:48:16,060 Yeah, 1512 00:48:17,400 --> 00:48:19,169 no one plays. 1513 00:48:19,170 --> 00:48:20,549 Hi, thank you for your talk. 1514 00:48:20,550 --> 00:48:22,679 I was wondering if you could 1515 00:48:22,680 --> 00:48:25,109 contrast or compare 1516 00:48:25,110 --> 00:48:27,209 the hacktivism with 1517 00:48:27,210 --> 00:48:29,219 other kinds of activism that we've been 1518 00:48:29,220 --> 00:48:31,319 seeing, because in a sense, of 1519 00:48:31,320 --> 00:48:33,329 course, activists are some form of 1520 00:48:33,330 --> 00:48:35,279 activists. But you also mentioned, for 1521 00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:38,099 instance, the LGBT community 1522 00:48:38,100 --> 00:48:40,169 and in a sense, I 1523 00:48:40,170 --> 00:48:42,659 feel like, OK, hackers seem like experts 1524 00:48:42,660 --> 00:48:44,519 on this technical field and see 1525 00:48:44,520 --> 00:48:46,109 themselves like that. 1526 00:48:46,110 --> 00:48:47,309 And that's something similar. 1527 00:48:47,310 --> 00:48:49,559 Like LGBT people know 1528 00:48:49,560 --> 00:48:51,329 a lot about their experiences with 1529 00:48:51,330 --> 00:48:53,939 discrimination on that field. 1530 00:48:53,940 --> 00:48:55,559 Black Lives Matter activists actually 1531 00:48:55,560 --> 00:48:57,659 know about racism compared to some, 1532 00:48:57,660 --> 00:48:59,579 I don't know Republican politicians. 1533 00:48:59,580 --> 00:49:01,799 So in a sense, 1534 00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:03,929 this I was just wondering 1535 00:49:03,930 --> 00:49:06,209 if you've also maybe done previous 1536 00:49:06,210 --> 00:49:08,279 research on other kinds 1537 00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:10,019 of activism or if you know of that 1538 00:49:10,020 --> 00:49:12,569 research and could compare it a bit, 1539 00:49:12,570 --> 00:49:13,529 what is the same? 1540 00:49:13,530 --> 00:49:14,759 What are the differences? 1541 00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:17,009 So the thing is, the tricky 1542 00:49:17,010 --> 00:49:19,019 part about the term and the concept of 1543 00:49:19,020 --> 00:49:20,819 hacktivism is where do you differentiate 1544 00:49:20,820 --> 00:49:22,799 between normal activism, what we consider 1545 00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:24,959 and activism? Now, my answer 1546 00:49:24,960 --> 00:49:26,039 to that is hacktivism. 1547 00:49:26,040 --> 00:49:27,689 You you need to do something with 1548 00:49:27,690 --> 00:49:29,319 technology which has a form of hack. 1549 00:49:29,320 --> 00:49:31,319 So you can't just tweet that or you can't 1550 00:49:31,320 --> 00:49:33,329 just use a blog or it needs to be a bit 1551 00:49:33,330 --> 00:49:35,639 more like technically involvement there. 1552 00:49:35,640 --> 00:49:37,649 And now we can talk about the U.S. 1553 00:49:37,650 --> 00:49:39,689 being that or not, but it has been termed 1554 00:49:39,690 --> 00:49:41,969 as such. And it is some form of like 1555 00:49:41,970 --> 00:49:44,309 using technology, like out of a place 1556 00:49:44,310 --> 00:49:45,899 and context. It was not meant to be. 1557 00:49:45,900 --> 00:49:47,459 And the difference I see with hacking and 1558 00:49:47,460 --> 00:49:49,649 all activism is simply the tools you use. 1559 00:49:49,650 --> 00:49:51,419 It's still achieving the same kind of 1560 00:49:51,420 --> 00:49:53,129 sending a political message. 1561 00:49:53,130 --> 00:49:55,409 And some people use like direct action 1562 00:49:55,410 --> 00:49:57,509 in an offline way and 1563 00:49:57,510 --> 00:49:59,579 other people use perhaps hacked activism 1564 00:49:59,580 --> 00:50:01,649 so the LGBT community could 1565 00:50:01,650 --> 00:50:03,689 use hacktivism as a technique to do 1566 00:50:03,690 --> 00:50:05,579 something. So that is my difference here. 1567 00:50:05,580 --> 00:50:06,719 You don't need to be a hacker to be a 1568 00:50:06,720 --> 00:50:08,609 hacktivist. And that is also the last 1569 00:50:08,610 --> 00:50:10,829 slide about this new kind of form 1570 00:50:10,830 --> 00:50:12,420 of activism coming into play. 1571 00:50:13,500 --> 00:50:15,119 So perhaps we will see more of that in 1572 00:50:15,120 --> 00:50:16,019 the future. I have no clue. 1573 00:50:16,020 --> 00:50:17,909 And perhaps the term will become more 1574 00:50:17,910 --> 00:50:19,829 concrete because at this moment of time, 1575 00:50:19,830 --> 00:50:21,269 it's just like a word you throw around, 1576 00:50:21,270 --> 00:50:24,479 just like I did in this sense, because 1577 00:50:24,480 --> 00:50:26,399 it is obviously that some people use that 1578 00:50:26,400 --> 00:50:28,409 term for themselves and who might be in 1579 00:50:28,410 --> 00:50:29,759 this room at this moment in time or 1580 00:50:29,760 --> 00:50:32,189 wherever, but they still perhaps 1581 00:50:32,190 --> 00:50:33,809 are associated. You can associate 1582 00:50:33,810 --> 00:50:35,219 yourself with the hacker community as a 1583 00:50:35,220 --> 00:50:37,119 hacktivist, but you can be LGBT. 1584 00:50:37,120 --> 00:50:39,269 You're a feminist using that tool as 1585 00:50:39,270 --> 00:50:41,789 well. So that's kind of a funny 1586 00:50:41,790 --> 00:50:43,589 way of considering that it's just a 1587 00:50:43,590 --> 00:50:45,469 technique in that regard for me. 1588 00:50:45,470 --> 00:50:46,469 I hope that answers that. 1589 00:50:46,470 --> 00:50:47,819 Thank you. Yeah. 1590 00:50:47,820 --> 00:50:50,279 And now for cyber space. 1591 00:50:50,280 --> 00:50:51,719 Do you have a question? 1592 00:50:51,720 --> 00:50:54,149 Yes, cyberspace has a question. 1593 00:50:54,150 --> 00:50:56,399 You're at a. Conference and you're trying 1594 00:50:56,400 --> 00:50:58,469 to hack public perception, would 1595 00:50:58,470 --> 00:51:00,219 you self identify as a hacker? 1596 00:51:00,220 --> 00:51:01,220 No, 1597 00:51:02,640 --> 00:51:04,829 I got that question at one 1598 00:51:04,830 --> 00:51:06,989 stage that, like, perhaps you 1599 00:51:06,990 --> 00:51:09,209 you can hack like I personally think 1600 00:51:09,210 --> 00:51:11,669 you can hack Ginder, you can hack like 1601 00:51:11,670 --> 00:51:13,199 social class. You can do that. 1602 00:51:15,120 --> 00:51:17,129 Probably in the course of my research, 1603 00:51:17,130 --> 00:51:18,839 people would call me then like being 1604 00:51:18,840 --> 00:51:20,429 biased if I would run around calling 1605 00:51:20,430 --> 00:51:22,529 myself a hacker. And as I said, the 1606 00:51:22,530 --> 00:51:24,149 whole meritocracy aspect, you can be 1607 00:51:24,150 --> 00:51:26,249 quite like an asshole if you say, 1608 00:51:26,250 --> 00:51:27,899 oh, I'm a hacker. 1609 00:51:27,900 --> 00:51:30,059 So I'm I 1610 00:51:30,060 --> 00:51:31,139 would rather abstain. 1611 00:51:31,140 --> 00:51:32,609 I would call myself rather a social 1612 00:51:32,610 --> 00:51:35,429 scientist, having observed that, then 1613 00:51:35,430 --> 00:51:37,619 using that term to step on someone's 1614 00:51:37,620 --> 00:51:38,969 toe and say, running around with that 1615 00:51:38,970 --> 00:51:39,970 term. 1616 00:51:41,380 --> 00:51:42,510 Any more questions? 1617 00:51:43,770 --> 00:51:45,289 This is your last chance. 1618 00:51:46,580 --> 00:51:47,660 The Internet again. 1619 00:51:48,760 --> 00:51:49,929 You know, the Internet is full of 1620 00:51:49,930 --> 00:51:50,930 questions. 1621 00:51:53,120 --> 00:51:55,159 In your research, were there any positive 1622 00:51:56,660 --> 00:51:57,660 things? 1623 00:51:59,270 --> 00:52:00,649 In your research, were there any 1624 00:52:00,650 --> 00:52:03,079 participants that sought that support 1625 00:52:03,080 --> 00:52:05,269 or help because of issues of depression 1626 00:52:05,270 --> 00:52:06,380 or lack of identity? 1627 00:52:09,410 --> 00:52:11,359 So I'm a bit reluctant, I don't know if I 1628 00:52:11,360 --> 00:52:13,339 should answer that or not, because, you 1629 00:52:13,340 --> 00:52:14,899 know, like, then I could get more 1630 00:52:14,900 --> 00:52:16,489 questions around who are they will be 1631 00:52:16,490 --> 00:52:17,810 doing and. 1632 00:52:20,050 --> 00:52:21,999 I rather abstained, giving that 1633 00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:23,000 information. 1634 00:52:30,590 --> 00:52:32,779 More Internet, yes, I'm not coming 1635 00:52:32,780 --> 00:52:34,179 up with these, I'm just forwarding them. 1636 00:52:35,660 --> 00:52:38,089 Did you see a cultural origin 1637 00:52:38,090 --> 00:52:39,090 of the hacker? 1638 00:52:41,170 --> 00:52:42,170 Who've 1639 00:52:44,030 --> 00:52:45,469 could come back and ask what is cultural 1640 00:52:45,470 --> 00:52:47,449 origin, and that that would be a very 1641 00:52:47,450 --> 00:52:49,159 social science way of like debating. 1642 00:52:51,360 --> 00:52:53,549 I I don't know, like so the 1643 00:52:53,550 --> 00:52:54,839 question I get a lot, so what is the 1644 00:52:54,840 --> 00:52:55,889 stereotypical hacker? 1645 00:52:55,890 --> 00:52:57,419 But then I would end up doing the same 1646 00:52:57,420 --> 00:52:58,679 thing like the whole research does. 1647 00:52:58,680 --> 00:52:59,909 Like, I don't know. 1648 00:52:59,910 --> 00:53:01,559 I think the community is very diverse. 1649 00:53:01,560 --> 00:53:03,239 It would be far too easy to just think 1650 00:53:03,240 --> 00:53:04,979 you all sit down at home in front of a 1651 00:53:04,980 --> 00:53:06,259 computer with the terminal opening a 1652 00:53:06,260 --> 00:53:08,369 Balaklava. I don't know if you do 1653 00:53:08,370 --> 00:53:10,649 have no proof of that, but 1654 00:53:11,650 --> 00:53:13,019 I don't know, cultural origin. 1655 00:53:13,020 --> 00:53:14,579 So what I think is really interesting is 1656 00:53:14,580 --> 00:53:16,319 what I saw in the interviews was that 1657 00:53:16,320 --> 00:53:18,689 aspect, that mindset, that attitude. 1658 00:53:18,690 --> 00:53:20,399 That seems to be something which 1659 00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:22,559 develops. You know, 1660 00:53:22,560 --> 00:53:24,089 that is what I mean. You can find a 1661 00:53:24,090 --> 00:53:25,679 computer scientists, you know, having 1662 00:53:25,680 --> 00:53:27,899 studied programing, doing his or 1663 00:53:27,900 --> 00:53:30,119 her day to day job, you know, but then 1664 00:53:30,120 --> 00:53:32,249 there's a different kind of attitude. 1665 00:53:32,250 --> 00:53:34,379 And where this comes from, I have no clue 1666 00:53:34,380 --> 00:53:35,369 that will be interesting. 1667 00:53:35,370 --> 00:53:36,989 But I'm sure, like there would be no 1668 00:53:36,990 --> 00:53:39,059 openness to statistical analysis 1669 00:53:39,060 --> 00:53:40,019 on the community here. 1670 00:53:40,020 --> 00:53:41,939 So it will remain open. 1671 00:53:41,940 --> 00:53:43,379 And I couldn't answer that question 1672 00:53:43,380 --> 00:53:44,380 sufficiently. 1673 00:53:45,290 --> 00:53:46,499 I just say no to everything. 1674 00:53:46,500 --> 00:53:47,500 No, sorry. 1675 00:53:49,090 --> 00:53:51,369 More Internet, you have just a 1676 00:53:51,370 --> 00:53:53,799 quick follow up to the depression 1677 00:53:53,800 --> 00:53:56,139 issue and the 1678 00:53:56,140 --> 00:53:58,539 question wasn't who had the issue, 1679 00:53:58,540 --> 00:54:00,699 but just if it happened and how 1680 00:54:00,700 --> 00:54:01,700 it was dealt with. 1681 00:54:02,790 --> 00:54:04,889 So if my participants had it, 1682 00:54:04,890 --> 00:54:07,349 no, oh, yeah, I 1683 00:54:07,350 --> 00:54:08,879 that was not a question I would ask so I 1684 00:54:08,880 --> 00:54:10,229 wouldn't know and I wouldn't like to 1685 00:54:10,230 --> 00:54:11,230 imply that. 1686 00:54:13,550 --> 00:54:15,190 Microphone number one, please. 1687 00:54:16,200 --> 00:54:17,849 All right, thanks for your talk. 1688 00:54:17,850 --> 00:54:20,549 So you mentioned the 1689 00:54:20,550 --> 00:54:22,649 sociology community that was, I 1690 00:54:22,650 --> 00:54:25,439 mean, doing research on hacking, 1691 00:54:25,440 --> 00:54:26,699 perhaps. Yeah, yeah. 1692 00:54:26,700 --> 00:54:28,259 And you referred to some of the as a 1693 00:54:28,260 --> 00:54:29,339 result in a way. 1694 00:54:29,340 --> 00:54:31,619 So just the questions are, how big is 1695 00:54:31,620 --> 00:54:32,759 that research community? 1696 00:54:32,760 --> 00:54:34,949 How many people are you talking about 1697 00:54:34,950 --> 00:54:38,070 and what kind of publications 1698 00:54:39,270 --> 00:54:41,609 do they do these other social institutes 1699 00:54:41,610 --> 00:54:43,829 of what could be possible titles 1700 00:54:43,830 --> 00:54:45,029 of their publications? What do they 1701 00:54:45,030 --> 00:54:46,030 learn? 1702 00:54:46,290 --> 00:54:47,579 There you go. There was the stepping 1703 00:54:47,580 --> 00:54:49,259 stone, not the stepping stone, the one 1704 00:54:49,260 --> 00:54:50,599 where stumble across. 1705 00:54:50,600 --> 00:54:53,039 And so when I said sociology, 1706 00:54:53,040 --> 00:54:55,229 so I said I feel called creating security 1707 00:54:55,230 --> 00:54:56,399 studies, sociology. 1708 00:54:56,400 --> 00:54:58,469 Anthropology does a really good perhaps I 1709 00:54:58,470 --> 00:54:59,849 did them in injustice by saying 1710 00:54:59,850 --> 00:55:01,109 sociology. 1711 00:55:01,110 --> 00:55:03,629 I'm in social sciences in general. 1712 00:55:03,630 --> 00:55:05,099 So there's a lot of people who do 1713 00:55:05,100 --> 00:55:07,169 incredibly good work like and I 1714 00:55:07,170 --> 00:55:09,359 try to be and try to talk to people 1715 00:55:09,360 --> 00:55:10,379 and represent them. 1716 00:55:10,380 --> 00:55:12,149 But I'm more referring to that aspect. 1717 00:55:12,150 --> 00:55:13,439 The field I'm currently in is that 1718 00:55:13,440 --> 00:55:15,449 security research in our international 1719 00:55:15,450 --> 00:55:17,489 relations, political science, who more 1720 00:55:17,490 --> 00:55:19,529 tends to talk about cybersecurity and 1721 00:55:19,530 --> 00:55:21,449 then using hackers is like an example of 1722 00:55:21,450 --> 00:55:23,519 why we should invest more money, get 1723 00:55:23,520 --> 00:55:25,289 more funding into the universities, blah, 1724 00:55:25,290 --> 00:55:27,539 blah, blah, and that that is the field 1725 00:55:27,540 --> 00:55:29,609 and how many there 1726 00:55:29,610 --> 00:55:31,769 are. I mean, like I can only 1727 00:55:31,770 --> 00:55:33,989 talk about, like the literature review 1728 00:55:33,990 --> 00:55:36,149 of them for my PhD thesis on the field 1729 00:55:36,150 --> 00:55:37,649 of insects. 1730 00:55:37,650 --> 00:55:40,079 And there are a few people who 1731 00:55:40,080 --> 00:55:41,519 who are critical, like there's a new 1732 00:55:41,520 --> 00:55:43,919 publication, 2005 on Anonymous 1733 00:55:43,920 --> 00:55:46,379 and the integrity of Anonymous in 1734 00:55:46,380 --> 00:55:47,609 international relations. 1735 00:55:47,610 --> 00:55:49,529 That's quite good, but will happen again 1736 00:55:49,530 --> 00:55:51,509 is like it was researchers sitting down 1737 00:55:51,510 --> 00:55:53,489 having a thought and writing up a paper. 1738 00:55:53,490 --> 00:55:55,859 But I was more interested in basically 1739 00:55:55,860 --> 00:55:57,599 stepping back and giving the floor to 1740 00:55:57,600 --> 00:55:59,609 people saying their own things. 1741 00:55:59,610 --> 00:56:01,799 And that, I think is not happening. 1742 00:56:01,800 --> 00:56:03,029 I don't know of that. 1743 00:56:03,030 --> 00:56:05,189 Many, like Gabriella Coleman does that. 1744 00:56:05,190 --> 00:56:07,649 I mean, she has like in her book, 1745 00:56:07,650 --> 00:56:09,839 given a lot of quotes of like people in 1746 00:56:09,840 --> 00:56:10,949 et cetera. 1747 00:56:10,950 --> 00:56:11,849 So it happens. 1748 00:56:11,850 --> 00:56:13,559 And I think sociology, anthropology is a 1749 00:56:13,560 --> 00:56:15,719 field where it goes on quite well. 1750 00:56:15,720 --> 00:56:17,339 But I think like, for instance, this old 1751 00:56:17,340 --> 00:56:19,739 school, old school I scholars 1752 00:56:19,740 --> 00:56:21,659 who perhaps sit in like prestigious 1753 00:56:21,660 --> 00:56:23,669 universities in the US and think of like 1754 00:56:23,670 --> 00:56:25,979 more cybersecurity are more using 1755 00:56:25,980 --> 00:56:28,409 hackers as a way of like justifying, 1756 00:56:28,410 --> 00:56:30,539 you know, more funding or intrusion and 1757 00:56:30,540 --> 00:56:33,179 security. So how much publications 1758 00:56:33,180 --> 00:56:35,159 we're talking about, I would not know. 1759 00:56:35,160 --> 00:56:36,929 I have no list of that. 1760 00:56:36,930 --> 00:56:39,359 But we can I can show you my 1761 00:56:39,360 --> 00:56:41,759 my list of papers 1762 00:56:41,760 --> 00:56:44,099 I admire and list of papers, which is far 1763 00:56:44,100 --> 00:56:45,839 higher, where I feel like they're going 1764 00:56:45,840 --> 00:56:47,679 in the wrong direction. 1765 00:56:47,680 --> 00:56:48,579 Thank you. 1766 00:56:48,580 --> 00:56:49,899 And we are out of time. 1767 00:56:49,900 --> 00:56:51,370 Please, once again, thank Lanie.