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If you are capable, please help us to create good quality subtitles: https://c3subtitles.de/talk/468 Thanks! 1 00:00:09,620 --> 00:00:10,759 Yeah, good morning. 2 00:00:10,760 --> 00:00:12,599 I hope you are up and running and 3 00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:13,849 mentally online, 4 00:00:15,140 --> 00:00:17,209 this next talk is something that 5 00:00:17,210 --> 00:00:18,859 touches my heart very deep. 6 00:00:18,860 --> 00:00:19,860 Sorry for that. 7 00:00:21,620 --> 00:00:23,959 It is about a person 8 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:24,960 who. 9 00:00:27,020 --> 00:00:29,609 He followed her heart in two ways, 10 00:00:29,610 --> 00:00:30,610 one is. 11 00:00:31,690 --> 00:00:33,460 Realizing being transgender, 12 00:00:34,810 --> 00:00:37,479 the other one has political influences 13 00:00:37,480 --> 00:00:40,779 and leaking documents 14 00:00:40,780 --> 00:00:43,839 and taking all the risks, 15 00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:46,059 paying a very high price, and she 16 00:00:46,060 --> 00:00:48,189 did what she had to do. 17 00:00:48,190 --> 00:00:50,559 So this talk is about her 18 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:52,779 and as part of 19 00:00:52,780 --> 00:00:53,780 her. 20 00:01:01,330 --> 00:01:03,429 Our panel today concerns an 21 00:01:03,430 --> 00:01:05,649 honorary member of the CCC 22 00:01:05,650 --> 00:01:07,899 who is imprisoned right now by 23 00:01:07,900 --> 00:01:09,999 the US military in Fort 24 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:11,769 Leavenworth, Kansas. 25 00:01:11,770 --> 00:01:13,869 Her name is Chelsea Manning. 26 00:01:13,870 --> 00:01:16,179 She's a young trans US Army 27 00:01:16,180 --> 00:01:18,279 whistleblower convicted to 35 years 28 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:21,279 in prison in the summer of 2013 29 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:23,469 for disclosing documents to a media 30 00:01:23,470 --> 00:01:25,269 organization. 31 00:01:25,270 --> 00:01:27,969 Many of the victims of crimes 32 00:01:27,970 --> 00:01:30,579 and wrongdoing revealed in the documents 33 00:01:30,580 --> 00:01:32,679 that Manning disclosed, are not 34 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:34,900 members of a Western electorate. 35 00:01:36,310 --> 00:01:39,209 Her revelations do not affect 36 00:01:39,210 --> 00:01:41,289 the bottom lines of Silicon 37 00:01:41,290 --> 00:01:43,209 Valley tech firms. 38 00:01:43,210 --> 00:01:45,429 But they created the age that we live 39 00:01:45,430 --> 00:01:47,589 in and had impact from 40 00:01:47,590 --> 00:01:49,129 Tunisia to Berlin. 41 00:01:50,470 --> 00:01:52,659 Despite however effective US 42 00:01:52,660 --> 00:01:55,089 propaganda has been concerning Manning, 43 00:01:55,090 --> 00:01:57,609 and it has been very effective. 44 00:01:57,610 --> 00:01:59,439 The US Department of Defense's own 45 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:01,329 comprehensive review of every single 46 00:02:01,330 --> 00:02:03,429 document released by her determined the 47 00:02:03,430 --> 00:02:06,549 disclosures to be low to moderate risk. 48 00:02:06,550 --> 00:02:08,829 The allegations that she dumped 49 00:02:08,830 --> 00:02:11,319 documents irresponsibly is false. 50 00:02:12,700 --> 00:02:14,799 She was convicted under the 51 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:16,869 Espionage and the Computer Fraud Abuse 52 00:02:16,870 --> 00:02:18,999 Acts for portions of 53 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:21,159 two hundred and forty documents. 54 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:23,109 A significant portion of those are 55 00:02:23,110 --> 00:02:24,110 unclassified. 56 00:02:25,590 --> 00:02:26,939 Over half a million U.S. 57 00:02:26,940 --> 00:02:28,439 government employees and federal 58 00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:30,929 contractors had access to the documents 59 00:02:30,930 --> 00:02:32,999 that Manning released, one of the 60 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:34,889 documents that put Manning away in prison 61 00:02:34,890 --> 00:02:37,259 for 35 years relates 62 00:02:37,260 --> 00:02:40,559 to malaria updates in Kingston, Jamaica, 63 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:41,729 four years later. 64 00:02:41,730 --> 00:02:43,799 No one has been harmed. 65 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:46,559 Her releases revealed or confirmed 66 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:48,749 mass civilian casualties by U.S. 67 00:02:48,750 --> 00:02:51,089 forces in Afghanistan, U.S. 68 00:02:51,090 --> 00:02:53,399 complicity in the torture 69 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:56,429 of detainees by Iraqi security forces, 70 00:02:56,430 --> 00:02:58,079 the existence of more children than we 71 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:00,419 knew being held 72 00:03:00,420 --> 00:03:02,219 and imprisoned at Guantanamo Bay prison 73 00:03:02,220 --> 00:03:04,469 camp, the training of death 74 00:03:04,470 --> 00:03:06,839 squads in Bangladesh by the U.K. 75 00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:08,729 and so much more. 76 00:03:08,730 --> 00:03:10,889 Manning trusted us with her life when she 77 00:03:10,890 --> 00:03:13,169 appealed to the public conscience, 78 00:03:13,170 --> 00:03:16,229 and she also created her own hope. 79 00:03:16,230 --> 00:03:18,389 Our own lives, I believe, 80 00:03:18,390 --> 00:03:20,459 depend on the hope that we create 81 00:03:20,460 --> 00:03:21,629 for her. 82 00:03:21,630 --> 00:03:23,369 I'm very honored today to be able to 83 00:03:23,370 --> 00:03:25,889 discuss her two pending 84 00:03:25,890 --> 00:03:28,139 legal matters 85 00:03:28,140 --> 00:03:29,189 with her attorneys. 86 00:03:29,190 --> 00:03:30,539 And they're going to come up on Skype 87 00:03:30,540 --> 00:03:32,729 now, hopefully. 88 00:03:45,790 --> 00:03:48,849 Nancy Hollander, who is currently 89 00:03:48,850 --> 00:03:51,069 coming back to us, is a preeminent 90 00:03:51,070 --> 00:03:52,779 American criminal defense attorney who 91 00:03:52,780 --> 00:03:55,299 specializes in national security cases. 92 00:03:55,300 --> 00:03:57,009 She represents prisoners held at 93 00:03:57,010 --> 00:03:59,049 Guantanamo Bay and has argued before the 94 00:03:59,050 --> 00:04:01,599 Supreme Court in the United States. 95 00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:03,699 Ahmed Gapper is a renowned American 96 00:04:03,700 --> 00:04:05,829 law professor who specializes in the 97 00:04:05,830 --> 00:04:08,049 intersection of technology and national 98 00:04:08,050 --> 00:04:09,219 security. 99 00:04:09,220 --> 00:04:11,319 He directs a litigation clinic at 100 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:13,419 UC Hastings that addresses 101 00:04:13,420 --> 00:04:15,489 constitutional issues that arise from 102 00:04:15,490 --> 00:04:17,619 espionage, counterterrorism and 103 00:04:17,620 --> 00:04:19,569 computer hacking cases. 104 00:04:19,570 --> 00:04:21,039 Cooper is also the attorney to the 105 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:22,719 imprisoned American journalist Barrett 106 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:24,669 Brown, currently awaiting sentencing in 107 00:04:24,670 --> 00:04:26,949 Texas January 22nd. 108 00:04:26,950 --> 00:04:28,749 Everyone should make sure to show their 109 00:04:28,750 --> 00:04:29,750 support. 110 00:04:30,410 --> 00:04:32,469 Chase Strangio is a 111 00:04:32,470 --> 00:04:35,409 staff attorney with the ACLU, 112 00:04:35,410 --> 00:04:37,599 LGBT and AIDS Project. 113 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:39,759 He specializes in the litigation 114 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:41,919 of incarcerated trans people 115 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:43,089 like Chelsea Manning. 116 00:04:44,830 --> 00:04:46,749 I see that Nancy is is having a bit of a 117 00:04:46,750 --> 00:04:48,519 technical difficulty. So I'm going to 118 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:50,589 actually chase I'm 119 00:04:50,590 --> 00:04:52,329 going to actually ask you, can you 120 00:04:52,330 --> 00:04:54,399 explain what it means to say that 121 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:56,769 Manning is trans and that she's suing 122 00:04:56,770 --> 00:04:58,929 the Department of Defense to get adequate 123 00:04:58,930 --> 00:04:59,930 medical treatment? 124 00:05:02,770 --> 00:05:04,420 Oh, hold on. 125 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:13,739 So we continue, we can't hear 126 00:05:13,740 --> 00:05:15,509 you, so let's figure out what's going on 127 00:05:15,510 --> 00:05:16,510 with that. 128 00:05:20,750 --> 00:05:21,750 Can you hear us? 129 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:23,509 Oh, God. 130 00:05:25,620 --> 00:05:27,839 Just to 131 00:05:27,840 --> 00:05:30,439 open, it controls 132 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:32,119 the line. 133 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:33,120 This is. 134 00:05:36,140 --> 00:05:37,819 So can somebody. 135 00:05:40,030 --> 00:05:41,050 Can you say something? No. 136 00:05:49,300 --> 00:05:51,219 Can you say something, please? 137 00:05:51,220 --> 00:05:52,220 This. 138 00:05:52,780 --> 00:05:53,780 Thank God. 139 00:05:55,630 --> 00:05:56,619 Can you hear? 140 00:05:56,620 --> 00:05:58,809 I can hear. Chase, Chase, please tell us, 141 00:05:58,810 --> 00:06:00,399 what does it mean when Manning says that 142 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:02,829 she's a tramp, she's trans and 143 00:06:02,830 --> 00:06:04,119 that she's suing the Department of 144 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:05,870 Defense for adequate medical care. 145 00:06:07,090 --> 00:06:09,189 So Chelsea 146 00:06:09,190 --> 00:06:11,529 and her entire life, it means 147 00:06:11,530 --> 00:06:13,959 that even though she was assigned 148 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:16,119 the sex of male at birth, that she 149 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:18,939 has been always a female 150 00:06:18,940 --> 00:06:21,669 and that she 151 00:06:21,670 --> 00:06:23,979 has a female gender identity and 152 00:06:23,980 --> 00:06:26,259 that incongruence between her male 153 00:06:26,260 --> 00:06:28,479 sex assigned sex at birth and her female 154 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:31,209 gender identity has caused her 155 00:06:31,210 --> 00:06:33,339 significant distress 156 00:06:33,340 --> 00:06:35,109 and continues to cause her significant 157 00:06:35,110 --> 00:06:37,329 distress. And the condition, the medical 158 00:06:37,330 --> 00:06:39,399 condition that she has been diagnosed 159 00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:41,229 with is called gender dysphoria. 160 00:06:41,230 --> 00:06:43,149 And even though this is a widely 161 00:06:43,150 --> 00:06:45,069 recognized medical condition with 162 00:06:45,070 --> 00:06:47,289 accepted standards of care, 163 00:06:47,290 --> 00:06:49,569 the military has continued and 164 00:06:49,570 --> 00:06:51,759 persist on not recognizing 165 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:53,409 that Chelsea need for treatment. 166 00:06:53,410 --> 00:06:55,059 Now, the military first diagnosed her 167 00:06:55,060 --> 00:06:57,789 with gender dysphoria in 2010 168 00:06:57,790 --> 00:06:59,919 and has since diagnosed her over seven 169 00:06:59,920 --> 00:07:02,289 times with gender dysphoria. 170 00:07:02,290 --> 00:07:04,809 So when the day after she 171 00:07:04,810 --> 00:07:07,029 was sentenced and she came out publicly 172 00:07:07,030 --> 00:07:09,609 as transgender and indicated 173 00:07:09,610 --> 00:07:10,989 that she would be requesting treatment 174 00:07:10,990 --> 00:07:12,669 for gender dysphoria, even though this 175 00:07:12,670 --> 00:07:14,589 was her first big public announcement 176 00:07:14,590 --> 00:07:16,629 about this, the military had known for 177 00:07:16,630 --> 00:07:18,129 over three years that she was 178 00:07:18,130 --> 00:07:19,130 transgender. 179 00:07:20,610 --> 00:07:22,829 Sorry, some distractions here, but 180 00:07:22,830 --> 00:07:25,249 she she 181 00:07:25,250 --> 00:07:27,179 so soon, when she arrived at Fort 182 00:07:27,180 --> 00:07:29,399 Leavenworth in Kansas, the first 183 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:30,959 thing she did was request treatment for 184 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:32,849 gender dysphoria and that included for 185 00:07:32,850 --> 00:07:35,819 her access to hormone therapy 186 00:07:35,820 --> 00:07:37,979 to bring her body into alignment 187 00:07:37,980 --> 00:07:40,079 with her female gender and access 188 00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:42,389 to the ability to grow her hair 189 00:07:42,390 --> 00:07:44,789 and dress and groom 190 00:07:44,790 --> 00:07:46,289 in accordance with female grooming 191 00:07:46,290 --> 00:07:48,599 standards. Now, the military from 192 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:50,669 that day forward took the position that 193 00:07:50,670 --> 00:07:52,469 they would not treat her gender 194 00:07:52,470 --> 00:07:55,049 dysphoria, despite the fact that courts 195 00:07:55,050 --> 00:07:56,699 in the United States have continually 196 00:07:56,700 --> 00:07:58,649 held that failure to treat gender 197 00:07:58,650 --> 00:08:00,869 dysphoria is a violation of 198 00:08:00,870 --> 00:08:02,729 the right of prisoners to be free from 199 00:08:02,730 --> 00:08:04,229 cruel and unusual punishment. 200 00:08:04,230 --> 00:08:05,519 It was clear from the start that the 201 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:07,409 military was going to take a position, 202 00:08:07,410 --> 00:08:08,519 one that we consider to be 203 00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:10,079 unconstitutional, that they would not 204 00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:11,579 provide Chelsea with treatment, even 205 00:08:11,580 --> 00:08:13,679 though they knew for at this point 206 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:15,539 over four years that she had this medical 207 00:08:15,540 --> 00:08:17,609 condition and she 208 00:08:17,610 --> 00:08:19,949 continued to fight for her treatment. 209 00:08:19,950 --> 00:08:21,239 The first thing she did when she arrived 210 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:22,809 at Leavenworth is asked for treatment. 211 00:08:22,810 --> 00:08:24,449 We were in touch with her from the from 212 00:08:24,450 --> 00:08:26,699 the very beginning. Upon her arrival, she 213 00:08:26,700 --> 00:08:27,899 filed grievances. 214 00:08:27,900 --> 00:08:30,029 She did everything in her power to 215 00:08:30,030 --> 00:08:31,739 try to get the treatment initiated, 216 00:08:31,740 --> 00:08:33,779 something that she considered to be 217 00:08:33,780 --> 00:08:36,178 central to her survival while she served 218 00:08:36,179 --> 00:08:38,249 her thirty five year sentence and 219 00:08:38,250 --> 00:08:40,319 something that, in her words, with 220 00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:42,329 the single most important thing to her, 221 00:08:42,330 --> 00:08:45,209 even more so than her appeal beginning 222 00:08:45,210 --> 00:08:46,679 from the day she was sentenced. 223 00:08:46,680 --> 00:08:48,779 And she continued 224 00:08:48,780 --> 00:08:50,249 to fight for it. And when it was clear 225 00:08:50,250 --> 00:08:51,929 that the military was not going to budge, 226 00:08:51,930 --> 00:08:53,279 they were not going to take her medical 227 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:54,689 condition seriously. 228 00:08:54,690 --> 00:08:56,909 She reached out to the ACLU 229 00:08:56,910 --> 00:08:58,859 and we decided that we would need to 230 00:08:58,860 --> 00:09:00,479 formally represent her in a lawsuit 231 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:02,159 against the Department of Defense. 232 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:04,229 So we Chelsea 233 00:09:04,230 --> 00:09:07,169 initiated the contact and we began 234 00:09:07,170 --> 00:09:08,939 the preparations to file a lawsuit. 235 00:09:08,940 --> 00:09:10,709 And we are now suing the Department of 236 00:09:10,710 --> 00:09:13,229 Defense, including officials 237 00:09:13,230 --> 00:09:15,359 from Hagel to 238 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:16,360 the 239 00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:19,199 individuals who are administering her 240 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:21,059 medical care at Fort Leavenworth, 241 00:09:21,060 --> 00:09:22,709 requesting that she be provided with 242 00:09:22,710 --> 00:09:24,089 medically necessary treatment in 243 00:09:24,090 --> 00:09:26,609 accordance with the Army's obligation 244 00:09:26,610 --> 00:09:28,349 under the Constitution. 245 00:09:28,350 --> 00:09:29,880 Can you can you help educate? 246 00:09:36,540 --> 00:09:38,729 Can you help educate us how does Manning 247 00:09:38,730 --> 00:09:40,109 wish to be represented? 248 00:09:40,110 --> 00:09:42,329 How does she wish to be referred 249 00:09:42,330 --> 00:09:43,229 to? 250 00:09:43,230 --> 00:09:44,759 Can you just help clarify that for the 251 00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:46,679 public? Because there seems to be a bit 252 00:09:46,680 --> 00:09:48,779 of confusion generally. 253 00:09:48,780 --> 00:09:50,939 Yeah, I think the most important 254 00:09:50,940 --> 00:09:52,889 thing from Chelsea's perspective, and 255 00:09:52,890 --> 00:09:54,899 this has been true for a very long time, 256 00:09:54,900 --> 00:09:56,969 is that she is a woman and 257 00:09:56,970 --> 00:09:59,129 sort of recognizing that core part of 258 00:09:59,130 --> 00:10:01,259 her identity, which is as fundamental as 259 00:10:01,260 --> 00:10:03,419 anyone's gender is to them as 260 00:10:03,420 --> 00:10:05,519 a woman, is absolutely critical to her 261 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:06,359 survival. 262 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:07,799 I mean, she's looking at being 263 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:10,199 incarcerated now for decades potentially. 264 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:12,329 And she 265 00:10:12,330 --> 00:10:14,729 every time her picture 266 00:10:14,730 --> 00:10:17,489 or any likeness of her is presented 267 00:10:17,490 --> 00:10:19,619 as male or any time anyone refers to 268 00:10:19,620 --> 00:10:21,359 her by her former name or with male 269 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:23,819 pronouns, it's a further 270 00:10:23,820 --> 00:10:25,949 erasure of who she is as at 271 00:10:25,950 --> 00:10:28,019 her core. And I think there was 272 00:10:28,020 --> 00:10:30,179 a lot of reports when she was 273 00:10:30,180 --> 00:10:32,339 during her Court-Martial about one 274 00:10:32,340 --> 00:10:34,079 of her greatest fears when she was 275 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:36,179 arrested was that for the rest of 276 00:10:36,180 --> 00:10:38,249 her life, images of her as 277 00:10:38,250 --> 00:10:40,259 a boy would be circulated globally. 278 00:10:40,260 --> 00:10:42,029 And that is absolutely something that 279 00:10:42,030 --> 00:10:44,279 just pains her and causes her so 280 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:46,229 much distress. And I think what we can do 281 00:10:46,230 --> 00:10:48,299 to honor her is continue to recognize her 282 00:10:48,300 --> 00:10:50,099 as the woman that she is and make sure 283 00:10:50,100 --> 00:10:52,289 that our narratives overcentralized that 284 00:10:52,290 --> 00:10:53,340 part of her identity. 285 00:10:54,490 --> 00:10:55,389 Thank you for telling. 286 00:10:55,390 --> 00:10:56,390 Thank you for telling us that. 287 00:11:00,550 --> 00:11:02,649 All right, Ahmed, 288 00:11:02,650 --> 00:11:05,799 you are going to help us to understand, 289 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:08,169 I just spent a month traveling 290 00:11:08,170 --> 00:11:10,329 through Spain with amnesty, trying to 291 00:11:10,330 --> 00:11:13,299 raise awareness about Manning's 292 00:11:13,300 --> 00:11:15,729 trial, the 293 00:11:15,730 --> 00:11:17,739 unfair nature of her trial, the 294 00:11:17,740 --> 00:11:18,819 prejudicial. 295 00:11:18,820 --> 00:11:20,469 Oh, thank you. 296 00:11:20,470 --> 00:11:22,479 The the fact that she was convicted to 297 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:24,669 thirty five to thirty five years in 298 00:11:24,670 --> 00:11:25,809 prison for 299 00:11:26,980 --> 00:11:29,259 essentially leaking low level battlefield 300 00:11:29,260 --> 00:11:31,329 reports that over half a million U.S. 301 00:11:31,330 --> 00:11:33,369 government employees had access to. 302 00:11:33,370 --> 00:11:35,499 Talk to me about the use of the 303 00:11:35,500 --> 00:11:37,749 Espionage Act in political 304 00:11:37,750 --> 00:11:40,389 prosecutions and prosecutions 305 00:11:40,390 --> 00:11:42,129 in the United States, generally speaking. 306 00:11:43,740 --> 00:11:45,979 So I think, thanks 307 00:11:45,980 --> 00:11:48,809 to begin with, thanks for having us 308 00:11:48,810 --> 00:11:50,969 and I'm going to try to talk 309 00:11:50,970 --> 00:11:53,789 as slow as possible just because, Nancy, 310 00:11:53,790 --> 00:11:55,979 I see her trying to connect every once 311 00:11:55,980 --> 00:11:57,509 in a while and she'd kill me if I said 312 00:11:57,510 --> 00:11:59,099 something wrong. 313 00:11:59,100 --> 00:12:00,749 But let me just let me just talk about 314 00:12:00,750 --> 00:12:02,429 what the Espionage Act is supposed to do 315 00:12:02,430 --> 00:12:03,989 in very broad terms. 316 00:12:03,990 --> 00:12:05,879 The Espionage Act is supposed to punish 317 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:08,519 folks for spying, for the enemy, 318 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:10,889 for selling state secrets, for personal 319 00:12:10,890 --> 00:12:12,989 gain, for trying to undermine 320 00:12:12,990 --> 00:12:15,479 the democratic fabric that enables 321 00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:16,409 our way of life. 322 00:12:16,410 --> 00:12:18,179 Now, I will pass it along to Nancy. 323 00:12:21,510 --> 00:12:23,830 It's just 324 00:12:25,680 --> 00:12:28,379 we're so glad you're here, Nancy. 325 00:12:28,380 --> 00:12:29,879 Thank you. 326 00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:32,069 All right. Something up and ate at my 327 00:12:32,070 --> 00:12:32,699 place. 328 00:12:32,700 --> 00:12:33,629 That's that's fine. 329 00:12:33,630 --> 00:12:35,729 I was just talking to us generally 330 00:12:35,730 --> 00:12:38,159 about the Espionage Act and how it's used 331 00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:40,140 in political prosecutions. 332 00:12:41,180 --> 00:12:43,339 Good to say what 333 00:12:43,340 --> 00:12:45,469 is supposed to be used for, so now I'm 334 00:12:45,470 --> 00:12:46,590 handing it off to you now. 335 00:12:48,060 --> 00:12:50,069 Well, what it's supposed to be used for, 336 00:12:50,070 --> 00:12:52,169 I don't know how far you got, but it was 337 00:12:52,170 --> 00:12:54,419 obviously intended for spies. 338 00:12:54,420 --> 00:12:56,519 It was written during World War One, 339 00:12:56,520 --> 00:12:59,279 maybe had already told you that 340 00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:01,859 it was a bad law when it began 341 00:13:01,860 --> 00:13:03,749 and it's a worse law. 342 00:13:03,750 --> 00:13:05,939 Now, the problem the 343 00:13:05,940 --> 00:13:08,609 main problem with the Espionage 344 00:13:08,610 --> 00:13:10,829 Act is not so much the 345 00:13:10,830 --> 00:13:12,929 act, if you read it, 346 00:13:12,930 --> 00:13:14,939 but the way the courts have interpreted 347 00:13:14,940 --> 00:13:16,169 it and the way the courts have 348 00:13:16,170 --> 00:13:18,299 interpreted it, not just in Chelsea 349 00:13:18,300 --> 00:13:20,669 Manning's case, but in many previous 350 00:13:20,670 --> 00:13:23,459 cases, is that 351 00:13:23,460 --> 00:13:25,589 the crime is committed when 352 00:13:25,590 --> 00:13:28,049 one discloses intends 353 00:13:28,050 --> 00:13:29,340 to disclose. 354 00:13:30,410 --> 00:13:33,109 National security information, 355 00:13:33,110 --> 00:13:35,269 so it doesn't have to hurt 356 00:13:35,270 --> 00:13:37,639 the United States, it doesn't have to aid 357 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:39,499 a foreign country, it certainly doesn't 358 00:13:39,500 --> 00:13:41,299 have to aid an enemy. 359 00:13:41,300 --> 00:13:44,389 It just is the act of disclosure. 360 00:13:44,390 --> 00:13:46,669 So it becomes what we call 361 00:13:46,670 --> 00:13:49,009 a strict liability crime, 362 00:13:49,010 --> 00:13:51,379 and there doesn't have to be any 363 00:13:51,380 --> 00:13:53,689 bad intent. 364 00:13:53,690 --> 00:13:55,759 There are two problems with this going 365 00:13:55,760 --> 00:13:56,809 in two directions. 366 00:13:56,810 --> 00:13:58,969 Obviously, it means that any one 367 00:13:58,970 --> 00:14:01,669 there is no defense 368 00:14:01,670 --> 00:14:03,379 for public interest. 369 00:14:03,380 --> 00:14:05,959 There's no defense for 370 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:07,999 telling the public something the public 371 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:09,679 needs to know. 372 00:14:09,680 --> 00:14:12,319 So there's no way an insider 373 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:14,779 can ever disclose anything without 374 00:14:14,780 --> 00:14:17,419 getting caught up in this act. 375 00:14:17,420 --> 00:14:19,759 If the government decides 376 00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:22,219 that it's a national security 377 00:14:22,220 --> 00:14:24,769 issue or disclosed that discloses 378 00:14:24,770 --> 00:14:26,839 national security information, 379 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:28,939 that's much broader than just 380 00:14:28,940 --> 00:14:30,469 classified information. 381 00:14:30,470 --> 00:14:32,329 It's whatever the government decides at 382 00:14:32,330 --> 00:14:34,669 that time is national security 383 00:14:34,670 --> 00:14:36,739 information. And I want to 384 00:14:36,740 --> 00:14:38,899 give you an example 385 00:14:38,900 --> 00:14:41,119 that is just recently 386 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:43,399 happened. There were five people 387 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:45,919 from Guantanamo who were exchanged 388 00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:46,970 for a US 389 00:14:47,990 --> 00:14:49,249 prisoner. 390 00:14:49,250 --> 00:14:51,709 We were told in the world 391 00:14:51,710 --> 00:14:54,349 that these particular five men who 392 00:14:54,350 --> 00:14:57,079 were supposedly members of the Taliban 393 00:14:57,080 --> 00:14:58,939 could never leave Guantanamo. 394 00:14:58,940 --> 00:15:01,039 They were what's known as forever 395 00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:03,349 prisoners because national security 396 00:15:03,350 --> 00:15:05,479 would be harmed if they were ever 397 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:07,189 released. And then all of a sudden 398 00:15:07,190 --> 00:15:09,349 they're released and national security 399 00:15:09,350 --> 00:15:11,419 is OK. So it's that's 400 00:15:11,420 --> 00:15:13,639 a moving target 401 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:15,319 and you never know where it is. 402 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:17,659 So the person is 403 00:15:17,660 --> 00:15:18,739 caught up in that. 404 00:15:18,740 --> 00:15:20,869 And that's what makes this 405 00:15:20,870 --> 00:15:23,209 law so dangerous. 406 00:15:23,210 --> 00:15:26,719 It's so broad from both directions. 407 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:28,399 It's unconstitutional. 408 00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:30,769 It's a violation of free speech 409 00:15:30,770 --> 00:15:33,109 and we have to stop it. 410 00:15:33,110 --> 00:15:35,419 That's the bottom line on 411 00:15:35,420 --> 00:15:36,499 the Espionage Act. 412 00:15:43,370 --> 00:15:44,809 Ahmed, is there anything you want to add 413 00:15:44,810 --> 00:15:46,219 on that? 414 00:15:46,220 --> 00:15:48,409 Well, I would just add just 415 00:15:48,410 --> 00:15:50,659 underscore the potential for abuse 416 00:15:50,660 --> 00:15:52,849 here and essentially 417 00:15:52,850 --> 00:15:55,009 the whole purpose of the laws is to 418 00:15:55,010 --> 00:15:57,229 be written in such a way that it 419 00:15:57,230 --> 00:15:58,759 doesn't allow the government to do 420 00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:00,889 exactly what Nancy is saying that 421 00:16:00,890 --> 00:16:03,409 they're doing. And and 422 00:16:03,410 --> 00:16:05,149 the Espionage Act is not supposed to be 423 00:16:05,150 --> 00:16:07,639 used as a vehicle for retaliation 424 00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:09,649 against whistleblowers. 425 00:16:09,650 --> 00:16:11,959 Of course, it doesn't 426 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:13,009 stop there. Right. 427 00:16:13,010 --> 00:16:15,049 The Obama administration, what they've 428 00:16:15,050 --> 00:16:17,299 done is systematized the criminalization 429 00:16:17,300 --> 00:16:18,469 of whistleblowers. 430 00:16:18,470 --> 00:16:21,799 And I don't say that merely because only 431 00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:23,809 about a dozen people in American history 432 00:16:23,810 --> 00:16:25,309 have been charged with espionage for 433 00:16:25,310 --> 00:16:26,789 leaking classified information. 434 00:16:26,790 --> 00:16:28,219 And seven or eight of them under the 435 00:16:28,220 --> 00:16:31,219 Barack Obama administration. 436 00:16:31,220 --> 00:16:33,019 I say that because most recently, the 437 00:16:33,020 --> 00:16:34,759 administration has brought them into the 438 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:35,809 long war. 439 00:16:35,810 --> 00:16:38,029 And what I mean by that is that the 440 00:16:38,030 --> 00:16:40,249 Obama administration has designated a new 441 00:16:40,250 --> 00:16:42,139 national security threat, the insider 442 00:16:42,140 --> 00:16:43,140 threat. 443 00:16:44,330 --> 00:16:46,730 And categorizing it as a threat 444 00:16:47,900 --> 00:16:50,179 means that you've now 445 00:16:50,180 --> 00:16:52,369 got a broad line of power to play around 446 00:16:52,370 --> 00:16:52,579 it. 447 00:16:52,580 --> 00:16:54,529 And the same way you can cast a wide net 448 00:16:54,530 --> 00:16:57,499 to find the next terror threat, the 449 00:16:57,500 --> 00:16:59,659 government will do the same and 450 00:16:59,660 --> 00:17:01,879 disclosure to prevent the next public 451 00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:04,189 embarrassment, because we can't tell 452 00:17:04,190 --> 00:17:06,409 every government employee out there, 453 00:17:06,410 --> 00:17:08,358 we'll just put pressure on journalists 454 00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:09,359 and 455 00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:12,858 leak and generally transfer 456 00:17:12,859 --> 00:17:15,649 privacy and transparency advocates, 457 00:17:15,650 --> 00:17:16,309 advocates. 458 00:17:16,310 --> 00:17:18,469 And that's why there's a push to get 459 00:17:18,470 --> 00:17:20,659 Congress to pass legislation amending 460 00:17:20,660 --> 00:17:22,129 the Espionage Act and allowing the 461 00:17:22,130 --> 00:17:24,078 defenses such as public accountability 462 00:17:24,079 --> 00:17:24,739 and necessity. 463 00:17:24,740 --> 00:17:26,029 But as things stand, 464 00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:29,779 we're basically screwed, and 465 00:17:29,780 --> 00:17:31,879 the Obama legacy will forever be 466 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:34,129 known as the presidency of secrecy. 467 00:17:34,130 --> 00:17:35,130 I want if 468 00:17:36,350 --> 00:17:38,839 I want to talk to you about what kind of 469 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:40,489 recourse Manning has. 470 00:17:40,490 --> 00:17:41,599 I mean, she's been convicted of thirty 471 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:43,699 five years. She's currently being held 472 00:17:43,700 --> 00:17:46,519 in a military prison in Kansas. 473 00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:48,679 What kind of recourse does she have 474 00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:50,059 at this point? 475 00:17:50,060 --> 00:17:52,249 Well, of course, she can always ask 476 00:17:52,250 --> 00:17:54,379 for a pardon. We'll continue to always 477 00:17:54,380 --> 00:17:55,369 do that. 478 00:17:55,370 --> 00:17:58,279 She has parole possibility 479 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:00,379 and about I think it's now about six 480 00:18:00,380 --> 00:18:01,669 or seven years. 481 00:18:01,670 --> 00:18:03,409 And of course, we will do that. 482 00:18:03,410 --> 00:18:05,539 But the main focus for 483 00:18:05,540 --> 00:18:07,699 me and for my 484 00:18:07,700 --> 00:18:10,459 partner, Vince Ford and 485 00:18:10,460 --> 00:18:12,769 the lawyers and the students, armed 486 00:18:12,770 --> 00:18:14,569 students who are working with us and her 487 00:18:14,570 --> 00:18:17,239 detailed counsel is her appeal. 488 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:19,459 The the appeal is to the 489 00:18:19,460 --> 00:18:22,309 court of Appeals for the Army. 490 00:18:22,310 --> 00:18:24,559 Then there's another appeal court 491 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:27,589 appeals to appeal forces, 492 00:18:27,590 --> 00:18:29,509 and then there's an appeal to the US 493 00:18:29,510 --> 00:18:32,479 Supreme Court. And then we start actually 494 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:34,219 the habeas petition. 495 00:18:34,220 --> 00:18:36,469 But our focus on first 496 00:18:36,470 --> 00:18:38,719 court is to raise 497 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:39,649 every issue. 498 00:18:39,650 --> 00:18:41,719 Espionage is only one of them that we 499 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:43,849 believe has merit. 500 00:18:43,850 --> 00:18:46,249 And we will be writing briefs. 501 00:18:46,250 --> 00:18:47,599 We read the transcript. 502 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:49,519 This is the longest transcripts in 503 00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:50,539 military history. 504 00:18:50,540 --> 00:18:51,829 So hold. 505 00:18:51,830 --> 00:18:53,059 It's huge. 506 00:18:53,060 --> 00:18:55,309 It's one hundred and eleven volumes. 507 00:18:55,310 --> 00:18:57,139 Each one is three hundred and thirty 508 00:18:57,140 --> 00:18:58,129 pages. 509 00:18:58,130 --> 00:19:00,249 So it is a huge 510 00:19:00,250 --> 00:19:02,509 record. It's going to take us time to get 511 00:19:02,510 --> 00:19:04,699 it all read, read all the exhibits, 512 00:19:04,700 --> 00:19:07,009 some of it's classified, 513 00:19:07,010 --> 00:19:09,649 classified. We have to go to Washington 514 00:19:09,650 --> 00:19:10,729 to read. 515 00:19:10,730 --> 00:19:13,219 But that's our real focus is to write 516 00:19:13,220 --> 00:19:15,409 the very best appeal to 517 00:19:15,410 --> 00:19:17,629 argue. I'll be arguing this case, 518 00:19:17,630 --> 00:19:19,729 to argue this case and convince the 519 00:19:19,730 --> 00:19:21,799 judge it's that Chelsea did not 520 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:23,629 receive a fair trial, which she clearly 521 00:19:23,630 --> 00:19:25,699 didn't because of the Espionage 522 00:19:25,700 --> 00:19:27,289 Act and because of a host of other 523 00:19:27,290 --> 00:19:28,609 reasons. 524 00:19:28,610 --> 00:19:31,009 Do you have what are some possible 525 00:19:31,010 --> 00:19:32,929 appellate issues other than the Espionage 526 00:19:32,930 --> 00:19:34,159 Act? 527 00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:36,229 Well, some of the obvious ones 528 00:19:36,230 --> 00:19:38,359 are the pretrial confinement 529 00:19:38,360 --> 00:19:39,360 issues. 530 00:19:40,010 --> 00:19:42,859 The the UN rapporteur 531 00:19:42,860 --> 00:19:45,049 considered some of her pretrial 532 00:19:45,050 --> 00:19:47,149 confinement to actually rise to the 533 00:19:47,150 --> 00:19:48,439 level of torture. 534 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:50,959 It was clearly cruel 535 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:52,909 and inhumane treatment, the way she was 536 00:19:52,910 --> 00:19:55,069 treated at Quantico 537 00:19:55,070 --> 00:19:57,379 excuse me, and in Kuwait, 538 00:19:57,380 --> 00:19:59,299 there was one point where she was forced 539 00:19:59,300 --> 00:20:01,489 to stand naked at attention. 540 00:20:01,490 --> 00:20:03,919 There was no purpose to that other 541 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:05,839 than to demean her. 542 00:20:07,790 --> 00:20:09,979 She was put on suicide watch 543 00:20:09,980 --> 00:20:12,709 when she clearly was not a suicide 544 00:20:12,710 --> 00:20:15,109 risk. And the psychiatrist kept saying 545 00:20:15,110 --> 00:20:16,669 that. But the prison did it. 546 00:20:16,670 --> 00:20:17,989 That's a big issue. 547 00:20:17,990 --> 00:20:19,849 There's a speedy trial issue. 548 00:20:19,850 --> 00:20:22,039 Did it take too long to have her 549 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:24,139 trial? This is a bigger issue 550 00:20:24,140 --> 00:20:25,639 actually in the military. 551 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:27,769 And the law is stronger for the 552 00:20:27,770 --> 00:20:30,019 defendant in the military than 553 00:20:30,020 --> 00:20:31,489 it is in our federal courts. 554 00:20:31,490 --> 00:20:33,319 And that's probably because people move 555 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:35,419 around a lot in the military. 556 00:20:35,420 --> 00:20:37,969 But there are some military laws 557 00:20:37,970 --> 00:20:40,579 that are helpful to her 558 00:20:40,580 --> 00:20:42,029 in that argument and. 559 00:20:42,030 --> 00:20:44,099 There are other issues, there was not 560 00:20:44,100 --> 00:20:46,289 that she didn't have witnesses she should 561 00:20:46,290 --> 00:20:48,779 have had the military 562 00:20:48,780 --> 00:20:51,299 gets to decide which witnesses 563 00:20:51,300 --> 00:20:53,849 are necessary and relevant 564 00:20:53,850 --> 00:20:56,219 and the prosecution even gets to chime 565 00:20:56,220 --> 00:20:58,589 in on that, which I find somewhat 566 00:20:58,590 --> 00:21:00,629 absurd. But that's the way they do it in 567 00:21:00,630 --> 00:21:01,589 the military. 568 00:21:01,590 --> 00:21:02,590 So there were 569 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:07,349 lots of witnesses she didn't get to 570 00:21:07,350 --> 00:21:08,309 have. 571 00:21:08,310 --> 00:21:09,539 That's a big issue. 572 00:21:09,540 --> 00:21:12,899 There are there were discovery issues. 573 00:21:12,900 --> 00:21:15,119 There are issues of what was 574 00:21:15,120 --> 00:21:17,339 the value of 575 00:21:17,340 --> 00:21:19,049 what she took? 576 00:21:19,050 --> 00:21:21,299 Was it under a thousand dollars or over 577 00:21:21,300 --> 00:21:22,199 a thousand dollars? 578 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:24,449 And how did they value it in all of these 579 00:21:24,450 --> 00:21:25,529 things? 580 00:21:25,530 --> 00:21:28,199 Add it up to charges 581 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:30,209 that added up to time. 582 00:21:30,210 --> 00:21:31,949 So we have a lot of issues 583 00:21:33,180 --> 00:21:34,319 and others. 584 00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:36,419 Then we'll be deciding which ones 585 00:21:36,420 --> 00:21:38,249 are the ones that we want to include in 586 00:21:38,250 --> 00:21:38,939 our brief. 587 00:21:38,940 --> 00:21:41,989 And that'll happen as we go along. 588 00:21:41,990 --> 00:21:44,099 Ahmed, tell me, why did you 589 00:21:45,120 --> 00:21:46,680 what brought you to this case? 590 00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:50,099 The U.S. you're the litigation 591 00:21:50,100 --> 00:21:52,379 clinic that you direct at UC Hastings 592 00:21:52,380 --> 00:21:54,749 is actually now working with the defense, 593 00:21:54,750 --> 00:21:56,609 the appellate attorneys. 594 00:21:56,610 --> 00:21:58,559 Tell me how you came to this case and why 595 00:21:58,560 --> 00:21:59,560 you think it's important. 596 00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:03,859 Well, I can't I can't the case obviously 597 00:22:03,860 --> 00:22:06,499 everybody knows about this case and 598 00:22:06,500 --> 00:22:08,659 Nancy and I work together. 599 00:22:08,660 --> 00:22:11,089 I can't say how long it would reveal 600 00:22:11,090 --> 00:22:12,589 how young I am, but 601 00:22:13,700 --> 00:22:14,569 four years. 602 00:22:14,570 --> 00:22:16,999 And it 603 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:19,399 really is it's a great place for students 604 00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:21,529 because it's an appeal and we can really 605 00:22:21,530 --> 00:22:23,839 digest all of the issues. 606 00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:25,969 It's also the kind 607 00:22:25,970 --> 00:22:27,829 of case that encompasses everything that 608 00:22:27,830 --> 00:22:30,199 the clinic does and the clinic at 609 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:32,059 UC Hastings. 610 00:22:32,060 --> 00:22:34,489 Basically, it's meant to 611 00:22:34,490 --> 00:22:36,709 to focus on the future of security, which 612 00:22:36,710 --> 00:22:37,969 is technology in the future of 613 00:22:37,970 --> 00:22:39,439 technology, which is security. 614 00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:41,619 And we see it. The first real case 615 00:22:41,620 --> 00:22:43,489 to encompass all that in the United 616 00:22:43,490 --> 00:22:45,229 States, I think, is that is Chelsea's 617 00:22:45,230 --> 00:22:47,509 case, the first 618 00:22:47,510 --> 00:22:49,699 real broad 619 00:22:49,700 --> 00:22:51,709 dragnet type of investigation 620 00:22:52,940 --> 00:22:55,039 to to to to follow 621 00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:56,539 up on that is the WikiLeaks 622 00:22:56,540 --> 00:22:58,159 investigation. 623 00:22:58,160 --> 00:22:59,659 So hopefully we'll be doing some work on 624 00:22:59,660 --> 00:23:00,660 that, too. 625 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:03,619 I think this is probably one of the most 626 00:23:03,620 --> 00:23:05,809 important cases around right now, 627 00:23:05,810 --> 00:23:07,879 period, for 628 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:09,739 a vast number of reasons, not only 629 00:23:09,740 --> 00:23:12,379 because of the the unconstitutionality 630 00:23:12,380 --> 00:23:15,109 of the application of the Espionage Act, 631 00:23:15,110 --> 00:23:17,269 but also because of 632 00:23:17,270 --> 00:23:19,639 the sort of the sort of message 633 00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:21,919 that it was meant to send to folks 634 00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:23,359 like Edward Snowden. 635 00:23:23,360 --> 00:23:25,639 And luckily, that 636 00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:26,949 message fell on deaf ears. 637 00:23:28,730 --> 00:23:30,739 Chase, I wanted to ask you, you know, 638 00:23:30,740 --> 00:23:32,479 Nancy was talking about Manning's 639 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:34,819 pretrial treatment at Quantico 640 00:23:34,820 --> 00:23:36,799 and in the public record, there is 641 00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:38,989 examples of prison officials referring 642 00:23:38,990 --> 00:23:40,819 to her underwear that they took from her 643 00:23:40,820 --> 00:23:41,820 as panties, 644 00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:46,339 homophobia, certainly 645 00:23:46,340 --> 00:23:48,019 transphobia. 646 00:23:48,020 --> 00:23:49,729 In your opinion, did Manning being 647 00:23:49,730 --> 00:23:51,889 transgendered or did transphobia 648 00:23:51,890 --> 00:23:54,019 in general impact her Court-Martial? 649 00:23:54,020 --> 00:23:55,249 And how so if it did. 650 00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:58,679 Well, I think, first of all, the 651 00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:00,759 the mistreatment of 652 00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:02,439 detainees and prisoners by the United 653 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:04,419 States government is certainly not 654 00:24:04,420 --> 00:24:07,089 limited to transgender individuals, 655 00:24:07,090 --> 00:24:09,189 but I think transgender individuals 656 00:24:09,190 --> 00:24:11,679 in custody do experience 657 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:13,929 particular hardships, in particular 658 00:24:13,930 --> 00:24:16,029 cruelty that I think Manning herself 659 00:24:16,030 --> 00:24:16,999 was subjected to. 660 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:19,389 Now, again, even though we didn't know 661 00:24:19,390 --> 00:24:21,549 publicly or most people didn't know that 662 00:24:21,550 --> 00:24:23,649 Manning was transgender until 663 00:24:23,650 --> 00:24:26,139 after her sentencing, the military did no 664 00:24:26,140 --> 00:24:28,359 as far back as 2010 and did know through 665 00:24:28,360 --> 00:24:29,819 her entire court martial. 666 00:24:29,820 --> 00:24:31,899 And so I think this affected her in a 667 00:24:31,900 --> 00:24:32,829 number of ways. 668 00:24:32,830 --> 00:24:34,989 The first of which was that she was 669 00:24:34,990 --> 00:24:37,569 forced to really 670 00:24:37,570 --> 00:24:39,909 minimize a critical part of her identity 671 00:24:39,910 --> 00:24:41,949 for a long period of time that had 672 00:24:41,950 --> 00:24:44,139 incredible challenges 673 00:24:44,140 --> 00:24:45,669 for her, that created a significant 674 00:24:45,670 --> 00:24:46,899 amount of distress through the court 675 00:24:46,900 --> 00:24:48,849 martial, which just impacted her ability 676 00:24:48,850 --> 00:24:50,679 to continue to be an advocate for 677 00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:52,449 herself. Now, that's not to say that she 678 00:24:52,450 --> 00:24:54,219 wasn't an incredible advocate, did not 679 00:24:54,220 --> 00:24:56,769 survive unbelievably horrific conditions, 680 00:24:56,770 --> 00:24:57,849 but she did. 681 00:24:57,850 --> 00:24:59,289 And then the other way is, of course, 682 00:24:59,290 --> 00:25:01,389 that the military used that 683 00:25:01,390 --> 00:25:03,609 to to further dehumanize 684 00:25:03,610 --> 00:25:06,009 her and to mock her and to belittle her 685 00:25:06,010 --> 00:25:07,869 in what were already horrific conditions. 686 00:25:07,870 --> 00:25:09,159 And I think this is something that 687 00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:11,499 transgender people in prison and 688 00:25:11,500 --> 00:25:13,689 outside of the experience all the time. 689 00:25:13,690 --> 00:25:14,919 And this was something that Chelsea 690 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:16,989 herself experienced throughout 691 00:25:16,990 --> 00:25:19,959 the horrible time that she was detained, 692 00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:21,849 particularly at Quantico. 693 00:25:21,850 --> 00:25:23,859 And I think what's important to remember 694 00:25:23,860 --> 00:25:26,379 is that she 695 00:25:26,380 --> 00:25:28,389 this part of her identity was so 696 00:25:28,390 --> 00:25:30,519 important and that she has taken 697 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:32,709 on unbelievable risk 698 00:25:32,710 --> 00:25:34,869 in continuing to fight for her fair 699 00:25:34,870 --> 00:25:36,819 treatment as a transgender person in a 700 00:25:36,820 --> 00:25:38,559 context, in an environment where 701 00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:40,419 transgender people are not taken 702 00:25:40,420 --> 00:25:43,029 seriously. And she fights her appeal. 703 00:25:43,030 --> 00:25:44,979 The fact that she is willing to sort of 704 00:25:44,980 --> 00:25:46,959 stand up for transgender people and put 705 00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:48,729 herself out, there is an incredible 706 00:25:48,730 --> 00:25:50,739 testament on top of everything else that 707 00:25:50,740 --> 00:25:52,479 she had done to the kind of person that 708 00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:53,480 she is. 709 00:26:00,620 --> 00:26:02,359 I just want to interject here. 710 00:26:02,360 --> 00:26:04,519 I have never seen a more 711 00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:06,769 earnest and thoughtful 712 00:26:06,770 --> 00:26:08,989 and reasoned 713 00:26:08,990 --> 00:26:11,209 person under 714 00:26:11,210 --> 00:26:12,619 that amount of stress. 715 00:26:12,620 --> 00:26:14,899 I mean, she's an extraordinary individual 716 00:26:14,900 --> 00:26:17,209 and she deserves every person's support. 717 00:26:26,030 --> 00:26:28,819 I wanted to talk to you on that about 718 00:26:28,820 --> 00:26:31,129 your other client there, Brown 719 00:26:31,130 --> 00:26:33,409 wasn't charged with the CFA 720 00:26:33,410 --> 00:26:34,939 sorry, the computer fraud and Abuse Act 721 00:26:34,940 --> 00:26:37,129 like Manning, but he was charged 722 00:26:37,130 --> 00:26:38,539 sort of similarly in the sense with 723 00:26:38,540 --> 00:26:40,669 hacking statutes that sort of 724 00:26:40,670 --> 00:26:42,979 ended up being part of a larger 725 00:26:42,980 --> 00:26:44,599 dragnet. Can you talk to me? 726 00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:46,249 First of all, what is the Computer Fraud 727 00:26:46,250 --> 00:26:47,250 and Abuse Act? 728 00:26:48,620 --> 00:26:50,899 So the Computer Fraud and Abuse 729 00:26:50,900 --> 00:26:54,079 Act is the federal anti hacking law. 730 00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:56,539 Among other things, the law criminalizes 731 00:26:56,540 --> 00:26:58,460 unauthorized access of a computer. 732 00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:01,759 Of course, the law doesn't explain what 733 00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:03,919 without authorization means. 734 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:05,989 So initially the purpose, 735 00:27:05,990 --> 00:27:08,059 while initially the purpose was to combat 736 00:27:08,060 --> 00:27:09,949 cyber terrorism, believe it or not, which 737 00:27:09,950 --> 00:27:11,959 is the hacking of computers that the 738 00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:14,189 federal government has the way 739 00:27:14,190 --> 00:27:16,039 and things go, the criminal conduct 740 00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:18,049 covered by the statute has broadened 741 00:27:18,050 --> 00:27:19,519 significantly. 742 00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:21,769 And so what we have now is 743 00:27:21,770 --> 00:27:23,959 a CFA or 744 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:25,669 Computer Fraud Abuse Act, where creative 745 00:27:25,670 --> 00:27:27,739 prosecutors can take 746 00:27:27,740 --> 00:27:29,809 advantage of the confusion and bring 747 00:27:29,810 --> 00:27:31,879 criminal charges that aren't really about 748 00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:33,199 hacking a computer at all, 749 00:27:35,780 --> 00:27:38,089 that essentially criminalized behavior 750 00:27:38,090 --> 00:27:39,529 that prosecutors don't like. 751 00:27:39,530 --> 00:27:41,599 So, for example, the 752 00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:43,729 government has claimed by violating a 753 00:27:43,730 --> 00:27:45,719 private agreement or corporate policy 754 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:47,779 amounts to a hacking violate or see if a 755 00:27:47,780 --> 00:27:49,909 valid violation in 756 00:27:49,910 --> 00:27:51,649 the manner in case the guy essentially 757 00:27:51,650 --> 00:27:53,839 argued that writing the script 758 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:56,149 to do something efficiently was exceeding 759 00:27:56,150 --> 00:27:57,169 authorized access. 760 00:27:57,170 --> 00:27:58,939 In this case, the script of the program 761 00:27:58,940 --> 00:28:00,020 was Woodgate, 762 00:28:01,100 --> 00:28:02,359 and this shouldn't be the case. 763 00:28:02,360 --> 00:28:04,639 So, of course, 764 00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:06,169 there's a joke about the military being 765 00:28:06,170 --> 00:28:07,519 inefficient in there, but I'm not going 766 00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:08,779 to make it. 767 00:28:08,780 --> 00:28:10,339 But compounding the problem is the 768 00:28:10,340 --> 00:28:12,439 sentencing issues with the Computer 769 00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:14,749 Fraud and Abuse Act, because 770 00:28:14,750 --> 00:28:15,769 you can get anywhere. 771 00:28:15,770 --> 00:28:17,359 The prosecutors can seek anywhere between 772 00:28:17,360 --> 00:28:19,939 five and 10 and 20 years and even life 773 00:28:19,940 --> 00:28:21,589 depending on the amount of damage or 774 00:28:21,590 --> 00:28:24,679 financial loss that was caused, 775 00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:27,079 which, of course, is 776 00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:28,080 disastrous. 777 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:31,399 As for Barrett's case, so there was not 778 00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:32,959 a hacker at all. He has absolutely no 779 00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:33,859 computer skills. 780 00:28:33,860 --> 00:28:35,779 Everybody in the world knows that he was 781 00:28:35,780 --> 00:28:38,359 a journalist that happened to cover 782 00:28:39,410 --> 00:28:41,689 what one might call the accidental cyber 783 00:28:41,690 --> 00:28:44,329 cyber war between the US government and 784 00:28:44,330 --> 00:28:45,949 anonymous. Of course, there was no such 785 00:28:45,950 --> 00:28:48,079 war and there is no such 786 00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:49,249 group as Anonymous. 787 00:28:49,250 --> 00:28:51,889 It's just a collective as opposed to 788 00:28:51,890 --> 00:28:54,169 like the Taliban or something. 789 00:28:54,170 --> 00:28:55,789 So by way of background, 790 00:28:57,120 --> 00:28:59,659 at the time of the conduct 791 00:28:59,660 --> 00:29:00,739 that was alleged, she found a 792 00:29:00,740 --> 00:29:02,659 collaborative Web publication called 793 00:29:02,660 --> 00:29:04,249 Project Pen. 794 00:29:04,250 --> 00:29:06,469 Project RPM's Purpose was to bring people 795 00:29:06,470 --> 00:29:08,749 together to conduct research 796 00:29:08,750 --> 00:29:10,669 on publicly available materials that were 797 00:29:10,670 --> 00:29:12,979 put forth into the public sphere 798 00:29:12,980 --> 00:29:15,229 by whistleblowers, leakers, hackers 799 00:29:15,230 --> 00:29:16,230 and so on. 800 00:29:17,030 --> 00:29:19,159 Project RPM's reports came to focus on 801 00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:21,079 the military and intelligence contracting 802 00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:22,069 industry. 803 00:29:22,070 --> 00:29:24,439 In December of 2011, about 804 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:26,809 five thousand emails from Stratfor Global 805 00:29:26,810 --> 00:29:29,329 Intelligence were infiltrated 806 00:29:29,330 --> 00:29:31,489 by Jeremy Hammond, 807 00:29:31,490 --> 00:29:32,490 among others, 808 00:29:34,010 --> 00:29:36,109 and by others I mean including the FBI, 809 00:29:36,110 --> 00:29:38,599 because Sârbu was involved and he was 810 00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:41,569 an FBI informant who essentially ran 811 00:29:41,570 --> 00:29:43,069 many of those operations. 812 00:29:43,070 --> 00:29:44,599 But that's a whole other story. 813 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:46,849 So the files contained revelations about 814 00:29:46,850 --> 00:29:48,979 close and inappropriate ties 815 00:29:48,980 --> 00:29:50,869 between the government, security agencies 816 00:29:50,870 --> 00:29:53,449 and private contractors. 817 00:29:53,450 --> 00:29:55,219 The emails, I should also mention are 818 00:29:55,220 --> 00:29:58,259 available now on WikiLeaks. 819 00:29:58,260 --> 00:30:00,319 So among the millions of Stratfor files 820 00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:02,029 were data containing credit card 821 00:30:02,030 --> 00:30:03,949 information and other security codes, 822 00:30:03,950 --> 00:30:06,199 part of the vast trove of the 823 00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:08,509 internal company documents that Stratfor, 824 00:30:08,510 --> 00:30:11,209 of course, forgot to encrypt. 825 00:30:11,210 --> 00:30:13,379 The credit card data was no interest 826 00:30:13,380 --> 00:30:15,589 to Barrett because 827 00:30:15,590 --> 00:30:17,449 that's not really what he's into. 828 00:30:17,450 --> 00:30:18,769 But it was of great interest to the 829 00:30:18,770 --> 00:30:20,839 government because in December 830 00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:23,149 of 2012, he was charged with 12 counts 831 00:30:23,150 --> 00:30:24,379 related to identity theft. 832 00:30:24,380 --> 00:30:25,819 I should mention that the Computer Fraud 833 00:30:25,820 --> 00:30:28,039 and Abuse Act initially was called 834 00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:30,259 something like the Computer Fraud 835 00:30:30,260 --> 00:30:32,459 and Identity Theft Act or something. 836 00:30:32,460 --> 00:30:34,190 It essentially 837 00:30:36,140 --> 00:30:38,509 incorporated the two statutes 838 00:30:38,510 --> 00:30:40,759 that come before it and 839 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:42,569 they were passed around the same time. 840 00:30:42,570 --> 00:30:44,779 So it is a hacking violation 841 00:30:44,780 --> 00:30:46,849 that was initially charged with 842 00:30:46,850 --> 00:30:48,949 he was charged with 12 counts related 843 00:30:48,950 --> 00:30:51,169 to identity theft for cutting and pasting 844 00:30:51,170 --> 00:30:52,549 hyperlinked. 845 00:30:52,550 --> 00:30:54,099 That led to the 846 00:30:55,290 --> 00:30:57,709 the public website that contained 847 00:30:57,710 --> 00:30:58,710 a GZ file 848 00:31:00,650 --> 00:31:02,390 containing that the dump of the hack. 849 00:31:04,730 --> 00:31:06,319 Of course, since then, we've challenged 850 00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:08,419 the charges on grounds that linking 851 00:31:08,420 --> 00:31:10,489 to information that is already in the 852 00:31:10,490 --> 00:31:13,099 public sphere is nothing more than pure 853 00:31:13,100 --> 00:31:15,739 newsgathering activity and 854 00:31:15,740 --> 00:31:17,659 that the government, in essence, was 855 00:31:17,660 --> 00:31:19,549 criminalizing journalism. 856 00:31:19,550 --> 00:31:21,229 Two days after we filed a motion to 857 00:31:21,230 --> 00:31:23,150 dismiss the government 858 00:31:24,650 --> 00:31:26,719 on their own, dismissed 11 out 859 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:28,879 of the 12 charges, and he 860 00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:31,249 will if he was to be sentenced 861 00:31:31,250 --> 00:31:32,089 a few days ago. 862 00:31:32,090 --> 00:31:33,889 But the judge has delayed sentencing for 863 00:31:33,890 --> 00:31:34,890 a month. 864 00:31:35,690 --> 00:31:38,059 So very, very long way to describe 865 00:31:38,060 --> 00:31:39,949 an even longer case that's been going on 866 00:31:39,950 --> 00:31:41,309 forever. 867 00:31:41,310 --> 00:31:43,819 Manning's case, you had 868 00:31:43,820 --> 00:31:45,979 someone who used to get 869 00:31:45,980 --> 00:31:47,449 to download one hundred and sixteen 870 00:31:47,450 --> 00:31:48,829 diplomatic cables. 871 00:31:48,830 --> 00:31:50,989 And according I'm not a lawyer, 872 00:31:50,990 --> 00:31:52,669 but according to my observation, the 873 00:31:52,670 --> 00:31:55,319 trial the judge appeared to, 874 00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:57,529 it was difficult to sort of know exactly 875 00:31:57,530 --> 00:31:59,329 what her sort of legal thought was 876 00:31:59,330 --> 00:32:00,769 because she didn't produce what was 877 00:32:00,770 --> 00:32:02,419 called a special findings. 878 00:32:02,420 --> 00:32:04,789 But from her pretrial orders, 879 00:32:04,790 --> 00:32:07,159 she appeared to sort of rule that 880 00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:09,499 it was because Manning 881 00:32:09,500 --> 00:32:10,670 exceeded her, 882 00:32:12,020 --> 00:32:14,569 violated her terms of service for the DOD 883 00:32:14,570 --> 00:32:16,279 network that the Department of Defense 884 00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:18,649 network by using get 885 00:32:18,650 --> 00:32:20,899 that, she also violated 886 00:32:20,900 --> 00:32:23,239 her security clearance. 887 00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:25,459 And she there was an automated sort 888 00:32:25,460 --> 00:32:27,619 of process of using get 889 00:32:27,620 --> 00:32:28,759 to download one hundred and sixteen 890 00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:29,989 cables. 891 00:32:29,990 --> 00:32:31,159 It seems to me, though, that the 892 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:32,929 government was trying to sort of 893 00:32:32,930 --> 00:32:34,789 fabricate a hacking charge where it 894 00:32:34,790 --> 00:32:36,889 didn't exist. Is the CFA always 895 00:32:36,890 --> 00:32:39,499 used to 896 00:32:39,500 --> 00:32:41,659 prosecute hackers or 897 00:32:41,660 --> 00:32:43,969 to I'm sorry, the act 898 00:32:43,970 --> 00:32:45,799 of hacking, or is it used actually to 899 00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:48,200 prosecute publication or disclosure? 900 00:32:49,570 --> 00:32:52,629 I mean, that's that's a really 901 00:32:52,630 --> 00:32:55,269 good question, and the problem is it 902 00:32:55,270 --> 00:32:56,629 all turns on the confusion. 903 00:32:56,630 --> 00:32:58,539 So whenever the government has a statute 904 00:32:58,540 --> 00:33:01,299 or a law that contains a confusing term 905 00:33:01,300 --> 00:33:03,789 or a confusing 906 00:33:03,790 --> 00:33:05,919 sort of idea or deals with some 907 00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:07,629 sort of confusing or difficult or 908 00:33:07,630 --> 00:33:10,329 technical concept like computers, 909 00:33:10,330 --> 00:33:11,949 they can get really creative and they can 910 00:33:11,950 --> 00:33:14,109 tell a judge, well, you know, this thing 911 00:33:14,110 --> 00:33:17,229 called wget or we get or 912 00:33:17,230 --> 00:33:19,809 you get is really an automated process 913 00:33:19,810 --> 00:33:21,939 to exfiltrate information from a 914 00:33:21,940 --> 00:33:22,899 server. 915 00:33:22,900 --> 00:33:25,869 And it's not it's just a way to 916 00:33:25,870 --> 00:33:26,439 automate it. 917 00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:28,479 It's like a script that automates a task 918 00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:30,249 of go and collect something and come 919 00:33:30,250 --> 00:33:32,080 back. And it's completely legal. 920 00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:35,379 But when you put that 921 00:33:35,380 --> 00:33:37,270 kind of narrative in front of a judge 922 00:33:38,620 --> 00:33:40,719 that was born before 923 00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:43,090 the idea of a computer ever existed, 924 00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:47,289 you you get into situations 925 00:33:47,290 --> 00:33:50,379 where there's an unfortunate 926 00:33:50,380 --> 00:33:52,509 reliance just on whatever 927 00:33:52,510 --> 00:33:54,789 the assertions are on the flip 928 00:33:54,790 --> 00:33:57,279 side, and this isn't necessarily 929 00:33:57,280 --> 00:33:58,659 talking about the Manning case, but 930 00:33:58,660 --> 00:34:00,639 generally, I mean, we see these kind of 931 00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:02,889 things in all all types of cases dealing 932 00:34:02,890 --> 00:34:05,349 with hacking and sort of 933 00:34:05,350 --> 00:34:07,119 technical crimes, but also in the 934 00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:09,158 national security crimes of terrorism, 935 00:34:09,159 --> 00:34:11,539 because you just call somebody my name. 936 00:34:11,540 --> 00:34:12,968 That doesn't make me a terrorist. 937 00:34:12,969 --> 00:34:15,488 But if you all of a sudden 938 00:34:15,489 --> 00:34:17,019 parse the conversation I had with my 939 00:34:17,020 --> 00:34:18,488 parents where I said a whole bunch of 940 00:34:18,489 --> 00:34:20,178 stuff in Arabic, and then you put that 941 00:34:20,179 --> 00:34:22,509 before a judge and you said, well, judge, 942 00:34:22,510 --> 00:34:24,579 these words in Arabic are 943 00:34:24,580 --> 00:34:25,509 code. 944 00:34:25,510 --> 00:34:27,789 And neither the judge or the prosecutor 945 00:34:27,790 --> 00:34:29,738 or the or the FBI understand what any of 946 00:34:29,739 --> 00:34:30,729 this stuff means. 947 00:34:30,730 --> 00:34:32,198 The next thing you know is you've got a 948 00:34:32,199 --> 00:34:34,149 conviction. And it's strange that you see 949 00:34:34,150 --> 00:34:36,249 these parallels with the hacking cases. 950 00:34:42,889 --> 00:34:45,589 I would I would like to give the audience 951 00:34:45,590 --> 00:34:47,899 a lot of time to ask questions, 952 00:34:47,900 --> 00:34:49,399 you should start lining up now. 953 00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:51,799 I just wanted to give you a heads up, 954 00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:53,509 because a lot of people have lots of 955 00:34:53,510 --> 00:34:54,859 questions about the Manning trial and 956 00:34:54,860 --> 00:34:57,169 there's a lot of things 957 00:34:57,170 --> 00:34:58,399 they need to to know about it. 958 00:34:58,400 --> 00:34:59,719 So go ahead and do that. 959 00:34:59,720 --> 00:35:02,269 I wanted to ask Chase, 960 00:35:02,270 --> 00:35:04,819 the ACLU actually pays for 961 00:35:04,820 --> 00:35:06,739 your representation of her and all the 962 00:35:06,740 --> 00:35:08,629 costs associated with her case against 963 00:35:08,630 --> 00:35:10,099 the Department of Defense. 964 00:35:10,100 --> 00:35:11,179 Is that correct? 965 00:35:11,180 --> 00:35:13,459 That's correct. OK, how 966 00:35:13,460 --> 00:35:15,619 can people support Manning in 967 00:35:15,620 --> 00:35:17,840 her suit against the DOD? 968 00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:21,329 So I think one of the critical ways 969 00:35:21,330 --> 00:35:23,279 and I'm saying the same thing over and 970 00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:24,989 over again here, but one of the critical 971 00:35:24,990 --> 00:35:27,269 ways to support Chelsea, I think, 972 00:35:27,270 --> 00:35:29,309 in general is to continue to tell her 973 00:35:29,310 --> 00:35:31,949 story publicly as much as possible 974 00:35:31,950 --> 00:35:34,469 and to do so, centralizing 975 00:35:34,470 --> 00:35:36,599 the fact that she is Chelsea, that she 976 00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:38,699 is a woman as sort of part of her 977 00:35:38,700 --> 00:35:40,199 narrative, because we really don't want 978 00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:41,849 that to be lost. So that's something 979 00:35:41,850 --> 00:35:43,739 that's just generally an important way to 980 00:35:43,740 --> 00:35:45,899 support her and sort of continue to give 981 00:35:45,900 --> 00:35:48,659 her the hope and the 982 00:35:48,660 --> 00:35:50,879 optimism that she needs to continue 983 00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:53,069 to fight this for a long and potentially 984 00:35:53,070 --> 00:35:54,339 a long time. 985 00:35:54,340 --> 00:35:56,459 Now, the other thing that people can 986 00:35:56,460 --> 00:35:58,829 do is to sort of organize campaigns 987 00:35:58,830 --> 00:36:01,019 and to continue to call 988 00:36:01,020 --> 00:36:03,089 on the Department of Defense and the 989 00:36:03,090 --> 00:36:05,249 new secretary of defense when 990 00:36:05,250 --> 00:36:07,349 when that person is confirmed 991 00:36:07,350 --> 00:36:09,239 to to provide Chelsea with the treatment 992 00:36:09,240 --> 00:36:11,309 that she needs. Now, this there's 993 00:36:11,310 --> 00:36:13,049 nothing stopping the DOD and the 994 00:36:13,050 --> 00:36:14,579 officials at Leavenworth from treating 995 00:36:14,580 --> 00:36:16,559 her. They know that they should they know 996 00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:18,329 it's consistent with medical standards, 997 00:36:18,330 --> 00:36:20,549 but it's essentially a political issue 998 00:36:20,550 --> 00:36:22,679 that they don't want to 999 00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:24,839 give in to her need for treatment, in 1000 00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:26,789 part because people don't think 1001 00:36:26,790 --> 00:36:28,499 transgender people are legitimate and 1002 00:36:28,500 --> 00:36:29,909 they don't take gender dysphoria 1003 00:36:29,910 --> 00:36:32,099 seriously, but also in part because they 1004 00:36:32,100 --> 00:36:33,239 don't like Chelsea. 1005 00:36:33,240 --> 00:36:35,669 And I think we need to continue to call 1006 00:36:35,670 --> 00:36:37,739 on them and show that the public is going 1007 00:36:37,740 --> 00:36:39,749 to continue to pressure them to provide 1008 00:36:39,750 --> 00:36:41,309 her treatment. That is essentially a 1009 00:36:41,310 --> 00:36:43,619 basic rudimentary treatment 1010 00:36:43,620 --> 00:36:45,449 that is provided for all sorts of other 1011 00:36:45,450 --> 00:36:47,669 conditions that would pose no cost 1012 00:36:47,670 --> 00:36:49,889 or risk to the government, 1013 00:36:49,890 --> 00:36:51,929 but not to continue to withhold it simply 1014 00:36:51,930 --> 00:36:53,429 because they don't take it seriously and 1015 00:36:53,430 --> 00:36:54,929 they don't like Chelsea. And I think the 1016 00:36:54,930 --> 00:36:57,269 public has a ton of power in this regard 1017 00:36:57,270 --> 00:36:58,769 and not losing sight of that and 1018 00:36:58,770 --> 00:37:01,169 continuing to call on the DOD 1019 00:37:01,170 --> 00:37:03,599 and Secretary of Defense Hagel 1020 00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:06,269 or Carter, if Carter is confirmed, 1021 00:37:06,270 --> 00:37:08,369 that's really going to be critical to her 1022 00:37:08,370 --> 00:37:09,599 survival in the long term. 1023 00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:10,799 And we can't lose sight of that. 1024 00:37:18,720 --> 00:37:21,119 I, Nancy, I, 1025 00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:22,120 I know that 1026 00:37:24,050 --> 00:37:26,159 I urge people to donate 1027 00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:27,569 to me and to Manning's legal defense 1028 00:37:27,570 --> 00:37:27,779 fund. 1029 00:37:27,780 --> 00:37:29,879 I mean, it's very expensive to be 1030 00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:31,829 prosecuted and convicted by the U.S. 1031 00:37:31,830 --> 00:37:33,329 government for espionage and computer 1032 00:37:33,330 --> 00:37:34,919 fraud and abuse when you're a 1033 00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:36,629 whistleblower and you can do that at 1034 00:37:36,630 --> 00:37:38,819 Chelsea Manning. Doug, what can people 1035 00:37:38,820 --> 00:37:41,219 do, Nancy, to support Manning 1036 00:37:41,220 --> 00:37:42,899 during this appellate process, whether 1037 00:37:42,900 --> 00:37:45,389 it's legally or financially 1038 00:37:45,390 --> 00:37:46,469 or emotionally? 1039 00:37:47,850 --> 00:37:49,559 Oh, I agree with Chase. 1040 00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:51,359 People can do all of those things. 1041 00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:53,939 We we work very hard 1042 00:37:53,940 --> 00:37:56,610 to keep Chelsea's case alive. 1043 00:37:57,690 --> 00:37:59,849 Alexa, you and I were just in Spain 1044 00:37:59,850 --> 00:38:01,979 for a week talking all over 1045 00:38:01,980 --> 00:38:04,349 the country about Chelsea. 1046 00:38:04,350 --> 00:38:06,599 Amnesty International 1047 00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:08,939 made Chelsea one of their main people 1048 00:38:08,940 --> 00:38:11,249 for this year so that she received 1049 00:38:11,250 --> 00:38:13,769 hundreds, maybe thousands of letters. 1050 00:38:13,770 --> 00:38:15,539 I was hoping there were enough letters 1051 00:38:15,540 --> 00:38:17,969 that the prison just was overwhelmed 1052 00:38:17,970 --> 00:38:20,519 with letters for her. 1053 00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:22,649 And she needs she needs that 1054 00:38:22,650 --> 00:38:23,879 support. 1055 00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:25,589 We need support. 1056 00:38:25,590 --> 00:38:27,779 Obviously, Vince, my partner, 1057 00:38:27,780 --> 00:38:29,969 Vincent Ward and I are 1058 00:38:29,970 --> 00:38:32,489 working on this case, 1059 00:38:32,490 --> 00:38:34,799 really is starting in the next 1060 00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:36,959 month or so, practically full time. 1061 00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:38,879 And we're private attorneys. 1062 00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:41,099 We can't we can't do this like 1063 00:38:41,100 --> 00:38:43,620 the ACLU does for free. 1064 00:38:44,730 --> 00:38:46,439 So we need that support. 1065 00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:48,539 This is a long case and we need to 1066 00:38:48,540 --> 00:38:49,979 keep her case alive. 1067 00:38:49,980 --> 00:38:52,409 We need to keep reminding people 1068 00:38:52,410 --> 00:38:54,839 that even though this is an appeal, 1069 00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:57,359 this is a viable appeal. 1070 00:38:57,360 --> 00:39:00,089 We have very important issues here. 1071 00:39:00,090 --> 00:39:02,369 We have issues that absolutely 1072 00:39:02,370 --> 00:39:04,619 need to be heard by the court and 1073 00:39:04,620 --> 00:39:06,599 Chelsea needs to win. 1074 00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:09,329 And that's only going to happen 1075 00:39:09,330 --> 00:39:12,029 if we can do our work and if people 1076 00:39:12,030 --> 00:39:14,189 help keep this case alive around 1077 00:39:14,190 --> 00:39:15,959 the world. So that's what I encourage 1078 00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:17,009 people to do. 1079 00:39:17,010 --> 00:39:19,319 Chelsea Manning dog is run 1080 00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:21,779 by the support committee. 1081 00:39:21,780 --> 00:39:24,269 We don't have anything to do with it, 1082 00:39:24,270 --> 00:39:26,789 but they are the ones who support 1083 00:39:26,790 --> 00:39:29,399 the our work and support Chelsea 1084 00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:31,709 and make sure that she has enough 1085 00:39:31,710 --> 00:39:34,379 money to she has 1086 00:39:34,380 --> 00:39:37,229 newspaper articles that she can read. 1087 00:39:37,230 --> 00:39:39,299 Chelsea also works really hard 1088 00:39:39,300 --> 00:39:41,549 and I don't want us to forget that 1089 00:39:41,550 --> 00:39:43,559 she works with us on our appeal. 1090 00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:45,659 She works with Chase 1091 00:39:45,660 --> 00:39:47,129 on their case. 1092 00:39:47,130 --> 00:39:49,559 She writes regularly. 1093 00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:52,229 She she works so hard sometimes 1094 00:39:52,230 --> 00:39:54,539 that she's overwhelmed by the amount 1095 00:39:54,540 --> 00:39:56,909 that we ask her to do and that the public 1096 00:39:56,910 --> 00:39:57,869 asks her to do. 1097 00:39:57,870 --> 00:40:00,029 But it's also important for her 1098 00:40:00,030 --> 00:40:02,099 to know that everyone 1099 00:40:02,100 --> 00:40:04,829 is behind her legally 1100 00:40:04,830 --> 00:40:07,049 and morally and ethically. 1101 00:40:07,050 --> 00:40:09,359 And so I hope all of you will do that 1102 00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:10,650 and continue to do that. 1103 00:40:17,900 --> 00:40:20,089 There's a question from number 1104 00:40:20,090 --> 00:40:21,090 four. 1105 00:40:21,510 --> 00:40:23,699 Yeah, Eric Holder has now 1106 00:40:23,700 --> 00:40:25,889 said that the Civil Rights Act 1107 00:40:25,890 --> 00:40:27,959 of 1964, that 1108 00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:30,179 the prohibition of sex discrimination 1109 00:40:30,180 --> 00:40:32,279 would also encompass discrimination based 1110 00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:34,619 on gender identity, including transgender 1111 00:40:34,620 --> 00:40:35,519 status. 1112 00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:37,379 Do you think that will be any help to 1113 00:40:37,380 --> 00:40:38,380 Chelsea Manning? 1114 00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:42,570 At the Civil Rights Act. 1115 00:40:43,620 --> 00:40:45,779 I should apply. 1116 00:40:45,780 --> 00:40:47,069 Nancy, do you want to take that or does 1117 00:40:47,070 --> 00:40:48,989 anyone want to take that or take I think 1118 00:40:48,990 --> 00:40:51,479 Chase take that, OK? 1119 00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:53,549 I mean, I can't speak for the 1120 00:40:53,550 --> 00:40:55,469 appeal, although I imagine that it's 1121 00:40:55,470 --> 00:40:57,239 probably not going to help too much on 1122 00:40:57,240 --> 00:40:59,819 the appeal it for for purposes 1123 00:40:59,820 --> 00:41:01,769 of her conditions of confinement case. 1124 00:41:01,770 --> 00:41:03,989 Unfortunately, legally, 1125 00:41:03,990 --> 00:41:06,179 it won't really make 1126 00:41:06,180 --> 00:41:08,129 a difference because the Civil Rights Act 1127 00:41:08,130 --> 00:41:10,229 won't apply to an Eighth Amendment 1128 00:41:10,230 --> 00:41:12,629 claim. But I think what is important 1129 00:41:12,630 --> 00:41:14,069 about that shift from the federal 1130 00:41:14,070 --> 00:41:16,469 government in recognizing that 1131 00:41:16,470 --> 00:41:18,689 discrimination against transgender 1132 00:41:18,690 --> 00:41:20,759 people amounts to sex discrimination for 1133 00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:22,889 purposes of federal nondiscrimination 1134 00:41:22,890 --> 00:41:24,569 protections, is that we're seeing a 1135 00:41:24,570 --> 00:41:26,249 shift, at least in sort of public 1136 00:41:26,250 --> 00:41:28,649 understanding of the fact that is 1137 00:41:28,650 --> 00:41:31,349 wrong under our federal 1138 00:41:31,350 --> 00:41:33,299 laws, at least, to discriminate against 1139 00:41:33,300 --> 00:41:35,129 people on the basis of their transgender 1140 00:41:35,130 --> 00:41:36,689 status or their gender identity and 1141 00:41:36,690 --> 00:41:38,999 expression. So I think it shows a shift 1142 00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:40,079 that is promising. 1143 00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:42,059 I do think, generally speaking, the 1144 00:41:42,060 --> 00:41:43,799 Eighth Amendment has been clearly 1145 00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:45,929 interpreted to apply to treatment for 1146 00:41:45,930 --> 00:41:48,179 gender dysphoria. So we should legally 1147 00:41:48,180 --> 00:41:50,549 be in a very clear position. 1148 00:41:50,550 --> 00:41:52,709 Of course, the courts don't necessarily 1149 00:41:52,710 --> 00:41:53,710 follow the law 1150 00:41:54,780 --> 00:41:56,069 when it comes to people who are 1151 00:41:56,070 --> 00:41:57,929 disfavored, and that's just the reality. 1152 00:41:57,930 --> 00:41:59,639 So I think, again, going back to the 1153 00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:01,289 public support, that's going to be 1154 00:42:01,290 --> 00:42:03,089 critical just as much as the litigation 1155 00:42:03,090 --> 00:42:04,090 is. 1156 00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:06,059 Chase, you want to explain what the 1157 00:42:06,060 --> 00:42:07,859 Eighth Amendment is to people who aren't 1158 00:42:07,860 --> 00:42:08,860 Americans? 1159 00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:13,529 So the Eighth Amendment to the United 1160 00:42:13,530 --> 00:42:15,659 States Constitution prohibits 1161 00:42:15,660 --> 00:42:17,999 cruel and unusual punishment to people 1162 00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:19,499 in custody. 1163 00:42:19,500 --> 00:42:21,599 And so it applies equally 1164 00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:23,129 to military prisons. 1165 00:42:23,130 --> 00:42:25,349 And actually the the military 1166 00:42:25,350 --> 00:42:27,039 has more expansive protection. 1167 00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:29,279 So that will be relevant for purposes 1168 00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:31,709 of the pretrial confinement aspects 1169 00:42:31,710 --> 00:42:33,389 of these conditions. 1170 00:42:33,390 --> 00:42:35,429 It won't be relevant for our case because 1171 00:42:35,430 --> 00:42:37,259 we are filing in federal district court 1172 00:42:37,260 --> 00:42:38,529 and not in military court. 1173 00:42:38,530 --> 00:42:40,589 So the Eighth Amendment than the 1174 00:42:40,590 --> 00:42:42,149 less expansive version of the Eighth 1175 00:42:42,150 --> 00:42:44,219 Amendment will apply in 1176 00:42:44,220 --> 00:42:45,179 our case. 1177 00:42:45,180 --> 00:42:47,099 But that has been held to apply to 1178 00:42:47,100 --> 00:42:49,199 medical treatment in addition to sort of 1179 00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:51,449 physical treatment and other forms 1180 00:42:51,450 --> 00:42:53,999 of cruelty 1181 00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:56,279 that are imposed on people in 1182 00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:58,879 custody in the United States and 1183 00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:01,289 have been held almost universally by 1184 00:43:01,290 --> 00:43:03,539 federal appellate courts to prohibit 1185 00:43:03,540 --> 00:43:05,849 bans on treatment for gender dysphoria. 1186 00:43:05,850 --> 00:43:07,259 So that's something that we're hoping 1187 00:43:07,260 --> 00:43:09,539 will be instrumental in forcing 1188 00:43:09,540 --> 00:43:11,639 the court to and then ultimately 1189 00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:13,139 the DOD to provide Chelsea with the 1190 00:43:13,140 --> 00:43:15,419 treatment that we that she needs now. 1191 00:43:15,420 --> 00:43:16,979 Hopefully it doesn't come to a court 1192 00:43:16,980 --> 00:43:18,539 order and the government will do the 1193 00:43:18,540 --> 00:43:20,819 right thing before we reach a final 1194 00:43:20,820 --> 00:43:21,809 resolution in court. 1195 00:43:21,810 --> 00:43:23,759 So we're continuing to pressure them from 1196 00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:24,840 all angles on that. 1197 00:43:26,630 --> 00:43:29,749 Thank you, number one, please. 1198 00:43:29,750 --> 00:43:31,939 I was just wondering, how 1199 00:43:31,940 --> 00:43:34,219 many years do you think this will 1200 00:43:34,220 --> 00:43:36,529 go until it reaches 1201 00:43:36,530 --> 00:43:38,479 maybe the Supreme Court, maybe higher. 1202 00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:40,849 So just how many years 1203 00:43:40,850 --> 00:43:43,939 do we, you know, does this 1204 00:43:43,940 --> 00:43:46,129 how many years are we looking forward 1205 00:43:46,130 --> 00:43:47,679 to for the fight? 1206 00:43:49,710 --> 00:43:51,959 This is a long fight, and 1207 00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:53,939 I can't tell you how many years I can 1208 00:43:53,940 --> 00:43:56,129 tell you that it's more than 1209 00:43:56,130 --> 00:43:58,499 one or two years we have two 1210 00:43:58,500 --> 00:43:59,540 appellate courts. 1211 00:44:00,570 --> 00:44:03,449 The process is we will file a brief 1212 00:44:03,450 --> 00:44:06,359 sometime in twenty fifteen 1213 00:44:06,360 --> 00:44:08,789 in the first court of appeals for the 1214 00:44:08,790 --> 00:44:10,139 for the army. 1215 00:44:10,140 --> 00:44:12,369 Then the government will file a brief. 1216 00:44:12,370 --> 00:44:14,159 They're going to take a long time because 1217 00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:16,019 they're going to argue that they have to 1218 00:44:16,020 --> 00:44:18,149 read this whole transcript and 1219 00:44:18,150 --> 00:44:19,799 that they haven't been doing anything 1220 00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:20,819 over the last year. 1221 00:44:20,820 --> 00:44:23,009 Of course, we'll try to demand that 1222 00:44:23,010 --> 00:44:25,439 they don't have as much time, but 1223 00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:27,239 then we get to write a third. 1224 00:44:27,240 --> 00:44:28,739 There was a third brief. 1225 00:44:28,740 --> 00:44:30,599 Then the court sets it for an oral 1226 00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:31,559 argument. 1227 00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:33,689 We will argue before the court and then 1228 00:44:33,690 --> 00:44:35,729 the court has to rule. 1229 00:44:35,730 --> 00:44:37,979 If we lose in that court or 1230 00:44:37,980 --> 00:44:40,109 even if the government loses, we can 1231 00:44:40,110 --> 00:44:42,599 request that the court of appeals 1232 00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:45,419 for the armed forces hear the case, 1233 00:44:45,420 --> 00:44:47,609 although that's a discretionary appeal, 1234 00:44:47,610 --> 00:44:49,439 it's very likely that that court would 1235 00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:51,299 take the appeal in this case because it's 1236 00:44:51,300 --> 00:44:52,859 such an important case. 1237 00:44:52,860 --> 00:44:54,809 And again, there's a series of briefs 1238 00:44:54,810 --> 00:44:56,699 written in that court. 1239 00:44:56,700 --> 00:44:58,799 And then if 1240 00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:01,739 if the case is not resolved there, 1241 00:45:01,740 --> 00:45:03,989 then it goes to the Supreme Court. 1242 00:45:03,990 --> 00:45:05,699 Again, that's discretionary. 1243 00:45:05,700 --> 00:45:07,829 The Supreme Court can decide whether 1244 00:45:07,830 --> 00:45:10,169 or not it wants to hear the case. 1245 00:45:10,170 --> 00:45:12,359 If we lost below, we 1246 00:45:12,360 --> 00:45:14,369 certainly will do everything we can to 1247 00:45:14,370 --> 00:45:16,529 try to get this case before the Supreme 1248 00:45:16,530 --> 00:45:19,769 Court. But to answer your question, 1249 00:45:19,770 --> 00:45:21,719 I can't tell you how many years, but I 1250 00:45:21,720 --> 00:45:23,219 can tell you it's more than one. 1251 00:45:23,220 --> 00:45:25,019 More than two. 1252 00:45:25,020 --> 00:45:26,819 I have a follow up question, is there a 1253 00:45:26,820 --> 00:45:28,169 difference between the U.S. 1254 00:45:28,170 --> 00:45:30,389 Army Court of Criminal Appeals, the first 1255 00:45:30,390 --> 00:45:31,949 appellate court and the Court of appeals 1256 00:45:31,950 --> 00:45:33,419 for the armed forces in terms of what 1257 00:45:33,420 --> 00:45:35,489 kinds of issues they'll consider? 1258 00:45:35,490 --> 00:45:37,469 Like is, for example, is the higher 1259 00:45:37,470 --> 00:45:39,719 military court for matters of 1260 00:45:39,720 --> 00:45:42,089 legal understanding, whereas the U.S. 1261 00:45:42,090 --> 00:45:44,249 Army, lower appeals court related 1262 00:45:44,250 --> 00:45:46,439 to sort of like evidentiary issues 1263 00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:48,629 or how the is there any distinction 1264 00:45:48,630 --> 00:45:50,129 between the two? 1265 00:45:50,130 --> 00:45:52,019 I don't think so. 1266 00:45:52,020 --> 00:45:54,209 I think that is just an appellate court. 1267 00:45:54,210 --> 00:45:56,099 If you lose in the first one, you can go 1268 00:45:56,100 --> 00:45:58,079 and ask that court to consider it. 1269 00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:00,179 Now, in all these cases, we are 1270 00:46:00,180 --> 00:46:02,309 bound by the record that was made 1271 00:46:02,310 --> 00:46:03,449 below. 1272 00:46:03,450 --> 00:46:06,299 That's the record we have. 1273 00:46:06,300 --> 00:46:08,519 We can't really we can't add 1274 00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:09,929 new facts. 1275 00:46:09,930 --> 00:46:12,659 We can we have that record. 1276 00:46:12,660 --> 00:46:14,759 And that's the record that that we 1277 00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:16,679 have to rely on, which is the record that 1278 00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:19,439 was made in the court below. 1279 00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:21,989 We can ask under some circumstances 1280 00:46:21,990 --> 00:46:24,209 for a remand back to 1281 00:46:24,210 --> 00:46:26,459 to the first court in some 1282 00:46:26,460 --> 00:46:28,469 instances. But whether we're going to do 1283 00:46:28,470 --> 00:46:31,759 that or not, we haven't decided, OK? 1284 00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:33,079 Sorry. 1285 00:46:33,080 --> 00:46:34,099 Thank you. 1286 00:46:34,100 --> 00:46:35,119 Number two, please. 1287 00:46:36,200 --> 00:46:38,419 And so this is going to be a quite 1288 00:46:38,420 --> 00:46:40,129 personal question about Chelsea. 1289 00:46:40,130 --> 00:46:42,409 So if you believe she doesn't want 1290 00:46:42,410 --> 00:46:45,229 this answered, please don't answer. 1291 00:46:45,230 --> 00:46:46,399 But I'm going to ask anyway. 1292 00:46:48,110 --> 00:46:49,110 Uh. 1293 00:46:49,900 --> 00:46:52,149 You said that she does not 1294 00:46:52,150 --> 00:46:54,999 get the treatment she needs 1295 00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:57,189 during her arrest. 1296 00:46:57,190 --> 00:46:59,379 Did you actually have any of this 1297 00:46:59,380 --> 00:47:01,539 treatment before her arrest or 1298 00:47:01,540 --> 00:47:03,369 is that something that just wasn't 1299 00:47:03,370 --> 00:47:05,289 possible while in the service? 1300 00:47:08,490 --> 00:47:10,529 I'm assuming this is a question about 1301 00:47:10,530 --> 00:47:12,510 treatment for gender dysphoria. 1302 00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:16,469 She said she 1303 00:47:16,470 --> 00:47:18,569 did not seek out 1304 00:47:18,570 --> 00:47:21,359 treatment prior to her arrest 1305 00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:24,029 in central part because 1306 00:47:24,030 --> 00:47:26,549 the United States military continues 1307 00:47:26,550 --> 00:47:28,739 to bar service by 1308 00:47:28,740 --> 00:47:30,959 transgender individuals and in fact, 1309 00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:32,670 criminalizes under 1310 00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:36,630 the military code of criminal justice, 1311 00:47:37,710 --> 00:47:39,929 any cross gender expressions, which 1312 00:47:39,930 --> 00:47:41,819 would include all treatment for gender 1313 00:47:41,820 --> 00:47:43,889 dysphoria. So if she had 1314 00:47:43,890 --> 00:47:46,739 sought treatment while she was in 1315 00:47:46,740 --> 00:47:49,109 the military, she she faced not only 1316 00:47:49,110 --> 00:47:51,239 discharged, but also criminal 1317 00:47:51,240 --> 00:47:53,399 liability. And so her ability 1318 00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:55,049 to come to terms with her transgender 1319 00:47:55,050 --> 00:47:57,149 identity was greatly diminished by being 1320 00:47:57,150 --> 00:47:59,939 in the service and the ban 1321 00:47:59,940 --> 00:48:01,589 on trans people serving openly. 1322 00:48:01,590 --> 00:48:03,779 And that's something that has affected 1323 00:48:03,780 --> 00:48:05,459 her and continues to affect so many other 1324 00:48:05,460 --> 00:48:06,779 people who are serving in the United 1325 00:48:06,780 --> 00:48:08,400 States military who are transgender. 1326 00:48:09,550 --> 00:48:10,550 Thanks. 1327 00:48:11,370 --> 00:48:13,259 Other than the questions from from the 1328 00:48:13,260 --> 00:48:14,260 net. 1329 00:48:16,060 --> 00:48:18,759 Yes, there are some questions, 1330 00:48:18,760 --> 00:48:20,799 the first one is referring to 1331 00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:23,679 discrimination of transgender people. 1332 00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:25,839 Did the support for Chelsea Manning 1333 00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:28,449 change after her coming out as a female? 1334 00:48:33,200 --> 00:48:34,200 You know, 1335 00:48:35,530 --> 00:48:37,839 I'm just that picture changed 1336 00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:38,840 everything, 1337 00:48:41,790 --> 00:48:44,619 you know, Nancy, they know more about 1338 00:48:44,620 --> 00:48:47,559 how this port has changed over time. 1339 00:48:47,560 --> 00:48:49,659 I think that one thing that 1340 00:48:49,660 --> 00:48:51,729 did happen is that the LGBT 1341 00:48:51,730 --> 00:48:53,679 community became more supportive of 1342 00:48:53,680 --> 00:48:55,749 Chelsea, I think, after she came 1343 00:48:55,750 --> 00:48:56,769 out as transgender. 1344 00:48:56,770 --> 00:48:58,569 And that was sort of part of her public 1345 00:48:58,570 --> 00:49:00,819 narrative. And I think it's unfortunate, 1346 00:49:00,820 --> 00:49:02,979 actually, that the LGBT community wasn't 1347 00:49:02,980 --> 00:49:04,899 more supportive during her Court-Martial 1348 00:49:04,900 --> 00:49:07,119 and that she was an out gay person 1349 00:49:07,120 --> 00:49:08,229 during that time. 1350 00:49:08,230 --> 00:49:09,230 And she 1351 00:49:10,300 --> 00:49:12,699 was also someone who was 1352 00:49:12,700 --> 00:49:14,799 a critically important person for the 1353 00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:16,599 for the United States and for the entire 1354 00:49:16,600 --> 00:49:18,519 world. So I think it's a shame that the 1355 00:49:18,520 --> 00:49:20,649 LGBT community didn't step up to 1356 00:49:20,650 --> 00:49:22,929 be a real, true advocate for her 1357 00:49:22,930 --> 00:49:25,539 until after she came out as transgender. 1358 00:49:25,540 --> 00:49:27,249 But I do think that's a community where 1359 00:49:27,250 --> 00:49:28,989 we saw increased support for her. 1360 00:49:28,990 --> 00:49:30,999 And I think there's been some 1361 00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:32,739 misunderstanding about her female 1362 00:49:32,740 --> 00:49:34,479 identity from her supporters. 1363 00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:36,339 And that's something to continue to sort 1364 00:49:36,340 --> 00:49:37,809 of centralize in her narrative. 1365 00:49:37,810 --> 00:49:40,179 But I do think overall we've seen 1366 00:49:40,180 --> 00:49:41,829 consistent support for Chelsea and 1367 00:49:41,830 --> 00:49:43,449 hopefully that support will only grow 1368 00:49:43,450 --> 00:49:44,769 over time. 1369 00:49:44,770 --> 00:49:46,359 I want to just add something here from 1370 00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:47,469 the court record that it was really 1371 00:49:47,470 --> 00:49:48,639 interesting. 1372 00:49:48,640 --> 00:49:50,769 Now that you filed this 1373 00:49:50,770 --> 00:49:51,999 department of the suit against the 1374 00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:53,949 Department of Defense, a lot of sort of 1375 00:49:53,950 --> 00:49:56,199 puzzle pieces are fitting together from 1376 00:49:56,200 --> 00:49:58,689 the court martial, like, for example, 1377 00:49:58,690 --> 00:50:00,759 one of the documents found in 1378 00:50:00,760 --> 00:50:03,099 Manning's dorm, sort of a military 1379 00:50:03,100 --> 00:50:05,199 dorm. It was called Achu in Iraq, 1380 00:50:05,200 --> 00:50:07,179 was a scholarly treatise on 1381 00:50:08,890 --> 00:50:09,969 written by a U.S. 1382 00:50:09,970 --> 00:50:11,259 Army sorry, U.S. 1383 00:50:11,260 --> 00:50:12,399 Air Force doctor. 1384 00:50:12,400 --> 00:50:15,279 It was a study that was called 1385 00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:17,139 Flight into Hypermasculinity. 1386 00:50:17,140 --> 00:50:19,299 And in this particular study, this 1387 00:50:19,300 --> 00:50:21,909 U.S. Army Air Force doctor 1388 00:50:21,910 --> 00:50:24,459 argued that the proportion of transgender 1389 00:50:24,460 --> 00:50:26,529 people was higher in the military than 1390 00:50:26,530 --> 00:50:28,989 in the general population because 1391 00:50:28,990 --> 00:50:31,239 trans women who identify 1392 00:50:31,240 --> 00:50:33,699 as women but were assigned male at birth 1393 00:50:33,700 --> 00:50:35,979 actually will join the military to try 1394 00:50:35,980 --> 00:50:38,439 to deal with their experience 1395 00:50:38,440 --> 00:50:40,659 with gender dysphoria. 1396 00:50:40,660 --> 00:50:42,819 So there's all these kinds of when 1397 00:50:42,820 --> 00:50:45,009 you say that Manning wasn't treated 1398 00:50:45,010 --> 00:50:47,199 for it, she was diagnosed with it before 1399 00:50:47,200 --> 00:50:49,299 her arrest, though. 1400 00:50:49,300 --> 00:50:50,289 Yeah, that is correct. 1401 00:50:50,290 --> 00:50:52,269 And she was diagnosed repeatedly every 1402 00:50:52,270 --> 00:50:53,529 single time she saw a medical 1403 00:50:53,530 --> 00:50:54,939 professional in the military. 1404 00:50:56,350 --> 00:50:58,869 And did she find herself 1405 00:50:58,870 --> 00:51:01,539 trying to express her femininity 1406 00:51:01,540 --> 00:51:03,639 while she was in Iraq or 1407 00:51:03,640 --> 00:51:04,640 during that time period? 1408 00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:08,189 Yes, you did, and I think 1409 00:51:08,190 --> 00:51:09,599 there's different ways to sort of look 1410 00:51:09,600 --> 00:51:11,789 back on that time, she talks a lot about 1411 00:51:11,790 --> 00:51:13,589 Aliev she took while she was deployed in 1412 00:51:13,590 --> 00:51:15,479 Iraq, in which time was the first time 1413 00:51:15,480 --> 00:51:17,609 she really publicly lived as 1414 00:51:17,610 --> 00:51:19,379 a woman and sort of outwardly expressed 1415 00:51:19,380 --> 00:51:21,089 her gender as such. But I think, as you 1416 00:51:21,090 --> 00:51:22,979 note, it's important to also recognize 1417 00:51:22,980 --> 00:51:25,259 all the way she she expressed her female 1418 00:51:25,260 --> 00:51:27,329 identity that weren't sort of outwardly 1419 00:51:27,330 --> 00:51:29,429 recognized as being feminine 1420 00:51:29,430 --> 00:51:31,379 or female and sort of understanding her 1421 00:51:31,380 --> 00:51:32,579 condition. 1422 00:51:32,580 --> 00:51:35,189 And also, it can't be sort of understated 1423 00:51:35,190 --> 00:51:37,259 the extent to which she was an 1424 00:51:37,260 --> 00:51:38,879 effeminate presenting person. 1425 00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:40,859 She was a gender nonconforming person. 1426 00:51:40,860 --> 00:51:42,959 She was always sort of identified 1427 00:51:42,960 --> 00:51:44,639 and sort of recognized as such. 1428 00:51:44,640 --> 00:51:45,780 And she also 1429 00:51:46,830 --> 00:51:48,579 existed under don't ask, don't tell. 1430 00:51:48,580 --> 00:51:50,489 She, too, was someone who was constantly 1431 00:51:50,490 --> 00:51:51,989 living under these conditions in the 1432 00:51:51,990 --> 00:51:54,059 military. And she sought out 1433 00:51:54,060 --> 00:51:56,129 ways to to express that and come 1434 00:51:56,130 --> 00:51:58,019 to terms with who she is as a woman, as a 1435 00:51:58,020 --> 00:51:59,009 transgender person. 1436 00:51:59,010 --> 00:52:01,319 And so that included things like dressing 1437 00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:03,449 up as a woman when she was on leave 1438 00:52:03,450 --> 00:52:05,609 and sort of trying to consolidate her 1439 00:52:05,610 --> 00:52:08,009 identity, but also doing extensive 1440 00:52:08,010 --> 00:52:09,419 research, trying to understand her 1441 00:52:09,420 --> 00:52:11,459 condition, trying to figure out ways that 1442 00:52:11,460 --> 00:52:14,159 she would be able to get treatment either 1443 00:52:14,160 --> 00:52:16,319 before she left the military or after. 1444 00:52:16,320 --> 00:52:18,539 And that is something that is very 1445 00:52:18,540 --> 00:52:20,369 much there in the record and very much 1446 00:52:20,370 --> 00:52:21,899 part of her story. 1447 00:52:21,900 --> 00:52:24,179 And it shows how much the military 1448 00:52:24,180 --> 00:52:25,829 was aware of her need for treatment for a 1449 00:52:25,830 --> 00:52:27,179 very long period of time. 1450 00:52:28,840 --> 00:52:31,389 I have a question from the European 1451 00:52:31,390 --> 00:52:34,329 perspective to you guys, 1452 00:52:34,330 --> 00:52:36,909 what can we do 1453 00:52:36,910 --> 00:52:37,989 for Chelsea? 1454 00:52:37,990 --> 00:52:40,269 I mean, you told from from the American 1455 00:52:40,270 --> 00:52:42,759 perspective that writing 1456 00:52:42,760 --> 00:52:45,249 to the military, OK, donating, 1457 00:52:45,250 --> 00:52:46,899 that's something we can do. 1458 00:52:46,900 --> 00:52:49,689 But what can we do 1459 00:52:49,690 --> 00:52:52,449 from here to support 1460 00:52:52,450 --> 00:52:54,340 your case, to support Chelsea? 1461 00:52:57,360 --> 00:52:58,360 But. 1462 00:53:03,010 --> 00:53:05,229 You can continue to talk about the case 1463 00:53:05,230 --> 00:53:07,599 as you are now, you can continue 1464 00:53:07,600 --> 00:53:10,209 to educate people about the case, 1465 00:53:10,210 --> 00:53:12,489 about the problems that 1466 00:53:12,490 --> 00:53:14,739 the whistleblowers have in the United 1467 00:53:14,740 --> 00:53:17,289 States, that it's it's virtually 1468 00:53:17,290 --> 00:53:20,379 impossible now for anyone 1469 00:53:20,380 --> 00:53:22,509 who has access 1470 00:53:22,510 --> 00:53:24,879 to any information that the US government 1471 00:53:24,880 --> 00:53:27,369 considers to be national security, 1472 00:53:27,370 --> 00:53:29,529 to bring this to the public if, 1473 00:53:29,530 --> 00:53:31,899 in fact, that person finds 1474 00:53:31,900 --> 00:53:34,119 human rights abuses, as Chelsea did, 1475 00:53:34,120 --> 00:53:36,699 if that person finds that the government 1476 00:53:36,700 --> 00:53:39,459 is misusing the classification 1477 00:53:39,460 --> 00:53:40,929 process. 1478 00:53:40,930 --> 00:53:44,169 It's a it's illegal 1479 00:53:44,170 --> 00:53:46,239 to classify evidence in the 1480 00:53:46,240 --> 00:53:49,059 United States for the purpose of avoiding 1481 00:53:49,060 --> 00:53:50,409 embarrassment of the government. 1482 00:53:50,410 --> 00:53:52,659 It's right in the executive order 1483 00:53:52,660 --> 00:53:55,569 from the president that it cannot be used 1484 00:53:55,570 --> 00:53:57,009 to avoid embarrassment. 1485 00:53:57,010 --> 00:53:59,229 And yet that is how it's 1486 00:53:59,230 --> 00:54:01,179 used. And we saw that in the torture 1487 00:54:01,180 --> 00:54:02,769 report, obviously. 1488 00:54:02,770 --> 00:54:05,079 And there's not one 1489 00:54:05,080 --> 00:54:08,319 there's a there's an actual process 1490 00:54:08,320 --> 00:54:10,629 that someone who has access 1491 00:54:10,630 --> 00:54:12,279 to classified information that that 1492 00:54:12,280 --> 00:54:14,739 person believes shouldn't be classified. 1493 00:54:14,740 --> 00:54:16,989 There's a process within the law 1494 00:54:16,990 --> 00:54:19,449 to go up the chain 1495 00:54:19,450 --> 00:54:21,279 and say this shouldn't be classified and 1496 00:54:21,280 --> 00:54:24,039 it's never been successful ever. 1497 00:54:24,040 --> 00:54:26,139 And that that's part of the 1498 00:54:26,140 --> 00:54:28,269 problem. So making this public, 1499 00:54:28,270 --> 00:54:30,429 continuing to make it public that 1500 00:54:30,430 --> 00:54:32,379 people have to be treated fairly, that 1501 00:54:32,380 --> 00:54:34,659 Chelsea needs to be treated fairly 1502 00:54:34,660 --> 00:54:36,579 in prison, that Chelsea didn't have a 1503 00:54:36,580 --> 00:54:37,659 fair trial. 1504 00:54:37,660 --> 00:54:39,849 All of that is supportive of 1505 00:54:39,850 --> 00:54:42,099 her as we go 1506 00:54:42,100 --> 00:54:44,169 forward in this appeal, the world 1507 00:54:44,170 --> 00:54:46,719 needs to keep this case in focus 1508 00:54:46,720 --> 00:54:48,789 because it's so important if we have 1509 00:54:48,790 --> 00:54:50,949 a government in the United States 1510 00:54:50,950 --> 00:54:53,409 that can protect its secrets, we can't 1511 00:54:53,410 --> 00:54:54,969 have a free society. 1512 00:54:54,970 --> 00:54:56,619 And that's just the bottom line. 1513 00:54:56,620 --> 00:54:58,689 And everyone in the world needs to 1514 00:54:58,690 --> 00:54:59,889 be concerned about that. 1515 00:55:01,100 --> 00:55:02,100 Thank you very much. 1516 00:55:05,940 --> 00:55:08,079 So we have five minutes, we 1517 00:55:08,080 --> 00:55:10,019 have to think. 1518 00:55:10,020 --> 00:55:12,389 Yeah, number four, please. 1519 00:55:13,650 --> 00:55:16,019 I would like each and 1520 00:55:16,020 --> 00:55:18,239 every one. I mean, Nancy Arment 1521 00:55:18,240 --> 00:55:20,369 and Cheese to answer 1522 00:55:20,370 --> 00:55:22,439 me this truthfully and honestly. 1523 00:55:22,440 --> 00:55:24,659 Honestly, just a yes or no. 1524 00:55:24,660 --> 00:55:27,539 And this is a personal quiz question. 1525 00:55:27,540 --> 00:55:29,639 After all of what 1526 00:55:29,640 --> 00:55:31,709 you have witnessed, do you 1527 00:55:31,710 --> 00:55:33,150 still believe in justice? 1528 00:55:34,340 --> 00:55:35,369 That's a good question. 1529 00:55:37,250 --> 00:55:38,749 And it started know. 1530 00:55:43,800 --> 00:55:45,599 OK, I'm the oldest, and I'm going to go 1531 00:55:45,600 --> 00:55:47,999 first your 1532 00:55:48,000 --> 00:55:49,000 name and first 1533 00:55:50,550 --> 00:55:52,170 look how young they are, both of them. 1534 00:55:54,090 --> 00:55:56,399 But I believe that 1535 00:55:56,400 --> 00:55:58,109 there can be justice. 1536 00:55:58,110 --> 00:56:00,449 I mean, I certainly believe in justice. 1537 00:56:00,450 --> 00:56:02,729 I believe that I want 1538 00:56:02,730 --> 00:56:05,489 justice for all people everywhere. 1539 00:56:05,490 --> 00:56:07,619 Do I believe that there can 1540 00:56:07,620 --> 00:56:08,639 be justice 1541 00:56:09,960 --> 00:56:11,189 anywhere? 1542 00:56:11,190 --> 00:56:12,629 Certainly in the United States? 1543 00:56:12,630 --> 00:56:13,649 I'm not so sure. 1544 00:56:13,650 --> 00:56:15,359 I've been a criminal defense lawyer for 1545 00:56:15,360 --> 00:56:16,799 over thirty five years. 1546 00:56:16,800 --> 00:56:19,409 I've seen a system 1547 00:56:19,410 --> 00:56:21,899 that I did believe in that I do believe 1548 00:56:21,900 --> 00:56:24,299 is on paper a really 1549 00:56:24,300 --> 00:56:26,429 good system. I believe that the jury 1550 00:56:26,430 --> 00:56:28,319 trial system is a good system. 1551 00:56:28,320 --> 00:56:30,479 I believe our system 1552 00:56:30,480 --> 00:56:32,939 that requires confrontation 1553 00:56:32,940 --> 00:56:35,039 of witnesses, which is different than the 1554 00:56:35,040 --> 00:56:37,169 European system, is a really 1555 00:56:37,170 --> 00:56:38,489 good system. 1556 00:56:38,490 --> 00:56:40,589 But I've seen 1557 00:56:40,590 --> 00:56:42,749 too much now and I'm 1558 00:56:42,750 --> 00:56:45,269 not sure that most 1559 00:56:45,270 --> 00:56:48,479 that people who have issues, 1560 00:56:48,480 --> 00:56:50,549 gender issues, national security 1561 00:56:50,550 --> 00:56:52,709 issues, anyone who's 1562 00:56:52,710 --> 00:56:55,349 Muslim in the United States, anyone 1563 00:56:55,350 --> 00:56:57,329 who is a minority in the United States, 1564 00:56:57,330 --> 00:56:59,639 I'm not sure any of those people 1565 00:56:59,640 --> 00:57:01,989 get justice as 1566 00:57:01,990 --> 00:57:05,099 the system exists today. 1567 00:57:05,100 --> 00:57:07,289 And that's that's very distressing. 1568 00:57:07,290 --> 00:57:09,239 I continue to work for it and I will 1569 00:57:09,240 --> 00:57:10,439 continue to work for it. 1570 00:57:10,440 --> 00:57:12,719 And we just have to continue that 1571 00:57:12,720 --> 00:57:15,629 struggle because we're 1572 00:57:15,630 --> 00:57:17,939 lawyers particularly have tremendous 1573 00:57:17,940 --> 00:57:20,429 power and we have the power to create 1574 00:57:20,430 --> 00:57:22,589 change. And that's what 1575 00:57:22,590 --> 00:57:24,779 we have to continue to do, is 1576 00:57:24,780 --> 00:57:25,860 to use that power. 1577 00:57:27,450 --> 00:57:28,450 Thank you. 1578 00:57:29,750 --> 00:57:31,909 We have a very last question because we 1579 00:57:31,910 --> 00:57:33,169 are running out of time. 1580 00:57:33,170 --> 00:57:35,149 Number two, please, please keep a shot. 1581 00:57:35,150 --> 00:57:37,009 So it's somewhat related to the last one. 1582 00:57:37,010 --> 00:57:39,139 But so you spend some 1583 00:57:39,140 --> 00:57:40,849 time telling us about the Espionage Act 1584 00:57:40,850 --> 00:57:42,439 and things like that, that Chelsea 1585 00:57:42,440 --> 00:57:44,569 Manning was treated unfairly so. 1586 00:57:44,570 --> 00:57:46,849 And yet you're trying to help her through 1587 00:57:46,850 --> 00:57:47,789 legal means again. 1588 00:57:47,790 --> 00:57:49,339 So what makes you think it will work this 1589 00:57:49,340 --> 00:57:50,340 time? 1590 00:57:51,290 --> 00:57:52,879 I don't have any choice. 1591 00:57:52,880 --> 00:57:54,619 I mean, you got some other idea? 1592 00:57:55,880 --> 00:57:56,880 No, I don't, but. 1593 00:57:59,820 --> 00:58:01,929 I know I don't have any choice, 1594 00:58:01,930 --> 00:58:04,229 we have to rely on public, 1595 00:58:04,230 --> 00:58:06,299 the public, the court of public 1596 00:58:06,300 --> 00:58:08,909 opinion is a very important court. 1597 00:58:08,910 --> 00:58:11,279 And there there have been cases 1598 00:58:11,280 --> 00:58:13,199 in the US Supreme Court that have said 1599 00:58:13,200 --> 00:58:15,569 the court of public opinion is important. 1600 00:58:15,570 --> 00:58:17,279 And that's why we're here and that's why 1601 00:58:17,280 --> 00:58:18,839 we're talking to all of you. 1602 00:58:18,840 --> 00:58:20,819 But we have we have no choice. 1603 00:58:20,820 --> 00:58:23,369 We have to go through the legal system 1604 00:58:23,370 --> 00:58:25,440 and we that's what we'll do. 1605 00:58:26,790 --> 00:58:29,039 Have to have something else you can say 1606 00:58:29,040 --> 00:58:30,040 to that. 1607 00:58:30,510 --> 00:58:31,469 Thank you very much. 1608 00:58:31,470 --> 00:58:33,809 I want to thank you guys for your 1609 00:58:33,810 --> 00:58:35,909 time today. This has been really 1610 00:58:35,910 --> 00:58:37,049 an awesome honor. 1611 00:58:37,050 --> 00:58:38,489 So thanks a lot, guys. 1612 00:58:50,070 --> 00:58:52,229 I think it is fair 1613 00:58:52,230 --> 00:58:54,599 enough to to thank you for your 1614 00:58:54,600 --> 00:58:56,699 awesome thank you for for 1615 00:58:56,700 --> 00:58:59,009 your rival for Chelsea, 1616 00:58:59,010 --> 00:59:01,259 and I think it is 1617 00:59:01,260 --> 00:59:03,270 OK if we say all. 1618 00:59:04,480 --> 00:59:06,249 All the energy and all the laughter tells 1619 00:59:06,250 --> 00:59:08,409 you absolutely all the 1620 00:59:08,410 --> 00:59:09,969 energy and all the love to Chelsea.