1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:09,390 *silent 30C3 preroll titles* 2 00:00:09,390 --> 00:00:15,839 *applause* Herald: Alright! 3 00:00:15,839 --> 00:00:18,870 Good evening, everybody. 4 00:00:18,870 --> 00:00:21,349 The ‘Saal’ is pretty full? So I guess this is gonna be 5 00:00:21,349 --> 00:00:26,050 an interesting talk. We are on a tight schedule. 6 00:00:26,050 --> 00:00:31,550 Our speaker, Jake Appelbaum is gonna be joined by Julian Assange via video stream. 7 00:00:31,550 --> 00:00:35,480 I really hope that’s gonna work. 8 00:00:35,480 --> 00:00:40,220 So without further ado – please welcome our speaker and… have fun! 9 00:00:40,220 --> 00:00:52,490 *applause, some cheers* 10 00:00:52,490 --> 00:00:55,600 Jacob Appelbaum: So we have a surprise guest. Some of you might know her. 11 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:58,680 She saved Edward Snowden’s life. Her name is Sarah Harrison. 12 00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:06,970 *applause and loud cheers* 13 00:01:06,970 --> 00:01:15,329 *Jacob applauding as Sarah prepares* 14 00:01:15,329 --> 00:01:57,499 *continued applause* 15 00:01:57,499 --> 00:02:00,630 Sarah Harrison: Thank you. *she and Jacob laugh* 16 00:02:00,630 --> 00:02:04,230 *laughter* *one shout from audience* 17 00:02:04,230 --> 00:02:09,418 Good evening. My name is Sarah Harrison as you all appear to know. 18 00:02:09,418 --> 00:02:14,550 I’m a journalist working for Wikileaks. This year I was part – as Jacob just said – 19 00:02:14,550 --> 00:02:17,780 of the Wikileaks team that saved Snowden from a life in prison. 20 00:02:17,780 --> 00:02:21,870 This act, and my job has meant that our legal advice is that I do not return 21 00:02:21,870 --> 00:02:26,260 to my home, the United Kingdom, due to the ongoing terrorism investigation there, 22 00:02:26,260 --> 00:02:29,430 in relation to the movement of Edward Snowden documents. 23 00:02:29,430 --> 00:02:33,190 The U.K. Government has chosen to define disclosing classified documents 24 00:02:33,190 --> 00:02:37,580 with an intent to influence Government behaviour as terrorism. I’m therefore 25 00:02:37,580 --> 00:02:42,030 currently remaining in Germany. But it’s not just myself, personally, that has 26 00:02:42,030 --> 00:02:46,110 legal issues of Wikileaks. For a fourth Christmas, our editor Julian Assange 27 00:02:46,110 --> 00:02:50,090 continues to be detained without charge in the U.K. He’s been granted formal 28 00:02:50,090 --> 00:02:53,950 political asylum by Ecuador due to the threat from the United States. 29 00:02:53,950 --> 00:02:57,950 But in breach of international law the U.K. continues to refuse to allow him 30 00:02:57,950 --> 00:03:02,970 his legal right to take up this asylum. In November of this year, 31 00:03:02,970 --> 00:03:07,760 a U.S. Government official confirmed that the enormous Grand Jury investigation 32 00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:13,350 which commenced in 2010 into Wikileaks, its stuff and specifically Julian Assange 33 00:03:13,350 --> 00:03:18,000 continues. This was then confirmed by the spokesperson of the prosecutor’s office 34 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:23,210 in Virginia. The Icelandic Parliament held an inquiry earlier this year where it 35 00:03:23,210 --> 00:03:28,150 found that the FBI had secretly and unlawfully sent nine agents to Iceland 36 00:03:28,150 --> 00:03:32,930 to conduct an investigation into Wikileaks there. Further secret interrogations 37 00:03:32,930 --> 00:03:37,120 took place in Denmark and Washington. The informant they were speaking with 38 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:41,930 has been charged with fraud and convicted on other charges in Iceland. 39 00:03:41,930 --> 00:03:45,650 In the Icelandic Supreme Court we won a substantial victory over the extra-legal 40 00:03:45,650 --> 00:03:51,300 U.S. financial blockade that was erected against us in 2010 by Visa, Mastercard, 41 00:03:51,300 --> 00:03:56,120 Paypal and other U.S. financial giants. Subsequently, Mastercard pulled out 42 00:03:56,120 --> 00:04:01,320 of the blockade. We’ve since filed a $77 million legal case against Visa 43 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:07,700 for damages. We filed a suit against Visa in Denmark as well. And in response 44 00:04:07,700 --> 00:04:12,480 to questions about how Paypal’s owner can start a free press outlet whilst blocking 45 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:15,790 another media organization, he has announced that the PayPal blockade 46 00:04:15,790 --> 00:04:20,419 of Wikileaks has ended. 47 00:04:20,419 --> 00:04:21,879 *applause* 48 00:04:21,879 --> 00:04:27,819 That wasn’t meant to be a pause for your clap, I just needed some water. Sorry! 49 00:04:27,819 --> 00:04:31,210 We filed criminal cases in Sweden and Germany in relation to the unlawful 50 00:04:31,210 --> 00:04:37,979 Intelligence activity against us there, including at the CCC in 2009. 51 00:04:37,979 --> 00:04:40,960 Together with the Center for Constitutional Rights we filed a suit against the 52 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:44,539 U.S. military, against the unprecedented secrecy applied to Chelsea Manning’s 53 00:04:44,539 --> 00:04:49,770 trial. Yet through these attacks we’ve continued our publishing work. In April 54 00:04:49,770 --> 00:04:53,479 of this year, we launched the Public Library of U.S. Diplomacy, the largest and 55 00:04:53,479 --> 00:04:57,860 most comprehensive searchable database of U.S. diplomatic cables in the world. 56 00:04:57,860 --> 00:05:02,919 This coincided with our release of 1.7 million U.S. cables from the Kissinger period. 57 00:05:02,919 --> 00:05:07,770 We launched our third Spy Files, 249 documents from 92 global Intelligence 58 00:05:07,770 --> 00:05:13,400 contractors exposing their technology, methods, and contracts. We completed 59 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:18,180 releasing the Global Intelligence Files, over five million emails from U.S. Intelligence 60 00:05:18,180 --> 00:05:21,849 firm Stratfor, the revelations from which included documenting their spying 61 00:05:21,849 --> 00:05:25,919 on activists around the globe. We published the primary negotiating 62 00:05:25,919 --> 00:05:30,220 positions for 14 countries of the Trans-Pacific Partnership, 63 00:05:30,220 --> 00:05:35,840 a new international legal regime that would control 40% of the world’s GDP. 64 00:05:35,840 --> 00:05:40,489 As well as getting Snowden asylum, we set up Mr. Snowden’s defence fund, part of 65 00:05:40,489 --> 00:05:44,449 a broader endeavor, the Journalistic Source Protection Defence Fund, which aims 66 00:05:44,449 --> 00:05:48,620 to protect and fund sources in trouble. This will be an important fund for 67 00:05:48,620 --> 00:05:52,650 future sources, especially when we look at the U.S. crackdown on whistleblowers 68 00:05:52,650 --> 00:05:56,710 like Snowden and alleged Wikileaks source Chelsea Manning who was sentenced 69 00:05:56,710 --> 00:06:01,540 this year to 35 years in prison, and another alleged Wikileaks source 70 00:06:01,540 --> 00:06:06,519 Jeremy Hammond, who was sentenced to ten years in prison this November. These men 71 00:06:06,519 --> 00:06:11,490 – Snowden, Manning and Hammond – are prime examples of a politicized youth 72 00:06:11,490 --> 00:06:15,469 who have grown up with a free internet and want to keep it that way. 73 00:06:15,469 --> 00:06:18,680 It is this class of people that we are here to discuss this evening, 74 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:24,139 the powers they and we all have, and can have, and the good that we can do with it. 75 00:06:24,139 --> 00:06:28,080 I’m joined here tonight for this discussion by two men I admire hugely: 76 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:31,759 – hopefully one of them will appear soon – *laughs* 77 00:06:31,759 --> 00:06:36,060 Wikileaks editor-in-chief Julian Assange and Jacob Appelbaum, both who have had 78 00:06:36,060 --> 00:06:39,460 a long history in defending our right to knowledge, despite political 79 00:06:39,460 --> 00:06:43,760 and legal pressure. There he is! *laughs* 80 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:59,519 *applause and cheers* 81 00:06:59,519 --> 00:07:05,079 So, Julian, saying as I haven’t seen you for quite a while, 82 00:07:05,079 --> 00:07:08,330 what’s been happening in this field this year? What’s your strategic view 83 00:07:08,330 --> 00:07:10,180 about it, this fight for freedom of knowledge? 84 00:07:10,180 --> 00:07:12,859 Are we winning or are we losing? 85 00:07:12,859 --> 00:07:15,720 Julian Assange: *via A/V connection, on screen* Well, I have an 18-page speech 86 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:19,909 on the strategic vision. But I think I’ve got about five> minutes, right? 87 00:07:19,909 --> 00:07:21,659 *coughs* Sarah: At the most! 88 00:07:21,659 --> 00:07:26,379 No, less? Okay. Well, first off, 89 00:07:26,379 --> 00:07:31,500 it’s very interesting to see the CCC has grown by 30% 90 00:07:31,500 --> 00:07:37,360 over the last year. And we can see the CCC 91 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:43,400 as a very important type of institution 92 00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:47,590 which does have analogues(?). The CCC is a paradox 93 00:07:47,590 --> 00:07:52,529 in that it has the vibrancy of a young movement, but also now has been going 94 00:07:52,529 --> 00:07:59,039 nearly 30 years since its founding in 1981 by Wau Holland and others. 95 00:07:59,039 --> 00:08:01,910 *video transmission stops/freezes* 96 00:08:01,910 --> 00:08:08,530 Sarah: *laughs* Great point, great point. *laughter* 97 00:08:08,530 --> 00:08:10,790 Jacob: Blame the NSA! Sarah: He, heh? 98 00:08:10,790 --> 00:08:12,710 Jacob: Blame the NSA! *Sarah laughs* 99 00:08:12,710 --> 00:08:14,620 So, the new “blame Canada”! *Sounds of Skype, reconnecting* 100 00:08:14,620 --> 00:08:17,489 Sarah: Is it here or the embassy that they’re spying on the most? 101 00:08:17,489 --> 00:08:32,899 *laughter* *ongoing sounds of Skype reconnecting* 102 00:08:32,899 --> 00:08:37,490 Hey, such a good talk, isn’t it, guys? *she laughs* 103 00:08:37,490 --> 00:08:39,970 Jacob: I wish Bruce Willis [Assange's Skype name] would pick up the phone! 104 00:08:39,970 --> 00:08:45,400 *laughter* 105 00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:50,460 Sarah: Should we move over while we’re waiting to you, Jake? As I said, I got… 106 00:08:50,460 --> 00:08:52,720 I think that it’s quite interesting, it does seem to be a trend that there are 107 00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:57,760 these young, technical people. We look at Manning, Snowden, Hammond… 108 00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:01,180 often sysadmins. Why are they playing such an important role in this fight 109 00:09:01,180 --> 00:09:03,180 for freedom of information? 110 00:09:03,180 --> 00:09:05,970 Jacob: Well, so, I think there are a couple of important points. 111 00:09:05,970 --> 00:09:11,150 The first important point is to understand that all of us have agency, but some of us 112 00:09:11,150 --> 00:09:14,890 actually literately have more agency than others in the sense that you have access 113 00:09:14,890 --> 00:09:20,070 to systems that give you access to information that help to found knowledge 114 00:09:20,070 --> 00:09:25,350 that you have in your own head. So someone like Manning or someone like Snowden 115 00:09:25,350 --> 00:09:28,610 who has access to these documents in the course of their work, they will simply 116 00:09:28,610 --> 00:09:32,260 have a better understanding of what is actually happening. They have access 117 00:09:32,260 --> 00:09:37,100 to the primary source documents. That’s part of their job. This, I think, 118 00:09:37,100 --> 00:09:42,980 fundamentally is a really critical, I would say a formative thing. 119 00:09:42,980 --> 00:09:46,070 When you start to read these original source documents you start to understand 120 00:09:46,070 --> 00:09:50,320 the way that organizations actually think internally. I mean, this is one of the things 121 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:53,920 that Julian Assange has said quite a lot, it’s that when you read the internal 122 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:57,280 documents of an organization, that’s how they really think about a thing. This is 123 00:09:57,280 --> 00:10:00,640 different than a press release. And people who have grown up on the internet, 124 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:04,640 and they’re essentially natives on the internet, and that’s all of us, I think, 125 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:09,380 for the most part. It’s definitely me. That essentially forms a way 126 00:10:09,380 --> 00:10:12,240 of thinking about organizations where the official thing that they say 127 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:15,550 is not interesting. You know that there is an agenda behind that 128 00:10:15,550 --> 00:10:19,330 and you don’t necessarily know what that true agenda is. And so people 129 00:10:19,330 --> 00:10:23,230 who grow up in this and see these documents, they realise the agency 130 00:10:23,230 --> 00:10:26,180 that they have. They understand it, they see that power, and they want to do 131 00:10:26,180 --> 00:10:31,570 something about it, in some cases. Some people do it in small starts and fits. 132 00:10:31,570 --> 00:10:34,590 So there are lots of sources for lots of newspapers that are inside of 133 00:10:34,590 --> 00:10:38,480 defense organizations or really, really large companies, and they share 134 00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:43,970 this information. But in the case of Chelsea Manning, in the case of Snowden 135 00:10:43,970 --> 00:10:49,060 they went big. And I presume that this is because of the scale of the wrongdoing 136 00:10:49,060 --> 00:10:52,750 that they saw, in addition to the amount of agency that was provided 137 00:10:52,750 --> 00:10:56,350 by their access and by their understanding of the actual information 138 00:10:56,350 --> 00:11:00,480 they were able to have in their possession. 139 00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:04,930 Sarah: And do you think that it has something to do with being technical 140 00:11:04,930 --> 00:11:08,350 they have a potential ability to find a way to do this 141 00:11:08,350 --> 00:11:12,730 safer than other people, perhaps? Or… 142 00:11:12,730 --> 00:11:17,450 Jacob: I mean, it’s clearly the case that this helps. There’s no question that 143 00:11:17,450 --> 00:11:21,490 understanding how to use those computer systems and being able to navigate them, 144 00:11:21,490 --> 00:11:24,500 that that is going to be a helpful skill. But I think what it really is is that 145 00:11:24,500 --> 00:11:28,670 these are people who grew up in an era, and I myself am one of these people, 146 00:11:28,670 --> 00:11:32,260 where we grew up in an era where we’re overloaded by information but we still 147 00:11:32,260 --> 00:11:36,330 are able to absorb a great deal of it. And we really are constantly going 148 00:11:36,330 --> 00:11:40,380 through this. And if we look to the past, we see that it’s not just technical people, 149 00:11:40,380 --> 00:11:44,060 it’s actually people who have an analytical mind. So e.g. Daniel Ellsberg, 150 00:11:44,060 --> 00:11:48,500 who is famous for the ‘Ellsberg Paradox’. He was of course a very seriously 151 00:11:48,500 --> 00:11:52,360 embedded person in the U.S. military. He was in the RAND corporation, 152 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:55,430 he worked with McNamara. And during the Vietnam War 153 00:11:55,430 --> 00:11:59,980 he had access to huge amounts of information. And it was the ability 154 00:11:59,980 --> 00:12:04,120 to analyze this information and to understand, in this case 155 00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:08,230 how the U.S. Government during the Vietnam War was lying to the entire world. 156 00:12:08,230 --> 00:12:12,450 And it was the magnitude of those lies combined with the ability to prove that 157 00:12:12,450 --> 00:12:18,040 they were lies that, I believe, combined with his analytical skill it was clear 158 00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:22,370 what the action might be. But it wasn’t clear what the outcome would be. 159 00:12:22,370 --> 00:12:25,980 And with Ellsberg, the outcome was a very positive one. In fact it’s 160 00:12:25,980 --> 00:12:28,820 the most positive outcome for any whistleblower so far that I know of 161 00:12:28,820 --> 00:12:32,100 in the history of the United States and maybe even in the world. 162 00:12:32,100 --> 00:12:36,070 What we see right now with Snowden and what we’ve now seen with Chelsea Manning 163 00:12:36,070 --> 00:12:39,490 is unfortunately a very different outcome, at least for Manning. 164 00:12:39,490 --> 00:12:45,190 So this is also a hugely important point which is that Ellsberg did this 165 00:12:45,190 --> 00:12:50,040 in the context of resistance against the Vietnam War. And when Ellsberg did this, 166 00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:54,050 there were huge support networks, there were gigantic things that split across 167 00:12:54,050 --> 00:12:59,840 all political spectrums of society. And so it is the analytical framework 168 00:12:59,840 --> 00:13:03,380 that we find ourselves with, still; but additionally with the internet. 169 00:13:03,380 --> 00:13:06,930 And so every single person here that works as a sysadmin, could you 170 00:13:06,930 --> 00:13:14,260 raise your hand? Right. You represent – and I’m sorry to steal Julian’s thunder, 171 00:13:14,260 --> 00:13:23,520 but he was using Skype, and… well… *laughter and applause* 172 00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:26,740 But we all know Skype has interception and man-in-the-middle problems, so… 173 00:13:26,740 --> 00:13:33,060 I’m gonna take advantage of that fact. You see, it’s not just the NSA. Everyone that 174 00:13:33,060 --> 00:13:38,870 raised their hand, you should raise your hand again! If you work at a company 175 00:13:38,870 --> 00:13:41,480 where you think that they might be involved in something that is 176 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:47,020 a little bit scary, keep your hand up! *laughter* 177 00:13:47,020 --> 00:13:52,950 Right. So here’s the deal: everybody else in the room lacks the information that 178 00:13:52,950 --> 00:13:57,380 you probably have access to. And if you were to make a moral judgment, if you 179 00:13:57,380 --> 00:14:01,090 were to make an ethical consideration about these things, it would be the case 180 00:14:01,090 --> 00:14:05,420 that as a political class you would be able to inform all of the other 181 00:14:05,420 --> 00:14:08,910 political classes in this room, all of the other people in this room, in a way that 182 00:14:08,910 --> 00:14:13,970 only you have the agency to do. And those who benefit from you never doing that, 183 00:14:13,970 --> 00:14:18,190 or the other people that have that. Those people also are members of other classes 184 00:14:18,190 --> 00:14:22,060 as well. And so the question is: If you were to unite as a political class, 185 00:14:22,060 --> 00:14:25,320 and we are to unite with you in that political class, we can see that there’s 186 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:30,970 a contextual way to view this through a historical lens, essentially. 187 00:14:30,970 --> 00:14:33,820 Which is to say that when the industrialized workers of the world 188 00:14:33,820 --> 00:14:38,680 decided that race and gender were not lines that we should split on, but instead 189 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:43,730 we should look at workers and owners, then we started to see real change in the way 190 00:14:43,730 --> 00:14:47,970 that workers were treated and in the way that the world itself was organizing labor. 191 00:14:47,970 --> 00:14:51,780 And this was a hugely important change during the Industrial Revolution. 192 00:14:51,780 --> 00:14:55,470 And we are going through a very similar time now with regard to information 193 00:14:55,470 --> 00:15:02,280 politics and with regard to the value of information in our information age. 194 00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:09,490 *Skype connection being re-established* *applause* 195 00:15:09,490 --> 00:15:15,270 *Skype connection just terminates again* *laughter* 196 00:15:15,270 --> 00:15:18,880 Jacob: Fantastic, Bruce Willis! 197 00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:23,950 *laughter* 198 00:15:23,950 --> 00:15:28,490 Hahahaha! Jesus Christ, Julian, use Jitsy already! 199 00:15:28,490 --> 00:15:36,250 *laughter, applause and cheers* 200 00:15:36,250 --> 00:15:39,660 Sarah: And so, we’ve identified the potential of the people that you were 201 00:15:39,660 --> 00:15:43,500 talking about. So you’ve spoken about how it’s good for them to unite. 202 00:15:43,500 --> 00:15:47,020 What are the next steps? How do they come forth? How do they share this information? 203 00:15:47,020 --> 00:15:51,180 Jacob: Well, let’s consider a couple of things. First is that Bradley Manning 204 00:15:51,180 --> 00:15:58,720 – now Chelsea Manning, Daniel Ellsberg – still Daniel Ellsberg, Edward Snowden 205 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:01,690 – living in exile in Russia, unfortunately… 206 00:16:01,690 --> 00:16:05,520 Sarah: …still Edward Snowden! Jacob: Still Edward Snowden! Hopefully. 207 00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:07,940 *Sarah laughs* These are people who have taken 208 00:16:07,940 --> 00:16:13,470 great actions where they did not even set out to sacrifice themselves. But once 209 00:16:13,470 --> 00:16:16,930 when I met Daniel Ellsberg he said: “Wouldn’t you go to prison for the rest 210 00:16:16,930 --> 00:16:20,610 of your life to end this war?” This is something he asked me, and he asked it 211 00:16:20,610 --> 00:16:24,050 to me quite seriously. And it’s very incredible to be able to ask 212 00:16:24,050 --> 00:16:26,040 a hypothetical question… *Skype ringing out* 213 00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:31,880 …of someone. That wasn’t a hypothetical question! What he was trying to say is 214 00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:35,640 that right now you can make a choice in which you can actually have a huge impact, 215 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:38,780 should you chose to take on that risk. But the point is not to set out 216 00:16:38,780 --> 00:16:41,530 to martyr yourself. The point is to set out… 217 00:16:41,530 --> 00:16:43,910 Are you gonna stick around this time, Julian? 218 00:16:43,910 --> 00:16:48,020 Julian: *via Skype* I don’t know, I’m waiting for the quantum hand, Jake. 219 00:16:48,020 --> 00:16:50,460 Jacob: The quantum hand that wants to strangle you? 220 00:16:50,460 --> 00:16:56,770 Julian: Yeah! I have protection! Jacob: We were just discussing right now 221 00:16:56,770 --> 00:17:00,720 the previous context, that is Daniel Ellsberg, the Edward Snowdens, 222 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:04,900 the Chelsea Mannings, how they have done an honorable, or good thing where they’ve 223 00:17:04,900 --> 00:17:08,539 shown a duty to a greater humanity. I think that is more important than 224 00:17:08,539 --> 00:17:13,500 loyalty, e.g. to a bureaucratic oath, but rather loyalty to universal principles. 225 00:17:13,500 --> 00:17:17,059 So the next question is: how does that relate to the people that are here 226 00:17:17,059 --> 00:17:20,970 in the audience? How is it the case that people who have access to systems 227 00:17:20,970 --> 00:17:23,659 where they have said themselves they think the companies they work for are 228 00:17:23,659 --> 00:17:26,779 sort of questionable, or doing dangerous things in the world? 229 00:17:26,779 --> 00:17:29,509 Where do we go from people who have done these things previously 230 00:17:29,509 --> 00:17:32,459 to these people in the audience? 231 00:17:32,459 --> 00:17:37,860 Julian: Well, I don’t know how much ground you covered, but I think it’s important 232 00:17:37,860 --> 00:17:47,609 that we recognize what we are, and what we have become. And that high tech workers are 233 00:17:47,609 --> 00:17:51,840 a particular class. In fact, very often it’s ‘class hacking’…(?). 234 00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:58,469 …class … a position to in fact prompt the leaders of society… 235 00:17:58,469 --> 00:18:02,960 [audio crippled, incomprehensible] 236 00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:07,509 [audio crippled, incomprehensible] *mumble in the audience* 237 00:18:07,509 --> 00:18:11,879 *laughter* 238 00:18:11,879 --> 00:18:14,290 Sarah: Should we just leave him like that and continue? 239 00:18:14,290 --> 00:18:18,600 *laughter* 240 00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:30,560 *laughter and applause* 241 00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:33,499 Julian: Am I back? Audience and speakers: Yeah!! 242 00:18:33,499 --> 00:18:36,100 Sarah: You’ve got three minutes! To say something! 243 00:18:36,100 --> 00:18:38,990 Julian: Alright! Sarah: Make it good! 244 00:18:38,990 --> 00:18:43,169 Julian: Those high tech workers – we are a particular class and it’s time that 245 00:18:43,169 --> 00:18:47,489 we recognized that we are a class. And looked back in history and understood 246 00:18:47,489 --> 00:18:53,230 that the great gains in human rights and education etc. that were gained through 247 00:18:53,230 --> 00:18:56,279 powerful industrial workers which formed the backbone of the economy 248 00:18:56,279 --> 00:19:01,249 of the 20th century, and that we have that same ability but even more so 249 00:19:01,249 --> 00:19:06,630 because of the greater interconnection that exists now economically and 250 00:19:06,630 --> 00:19:10,309 politically. Which is all underpinned by system administrators. And we should 251 00:19:10,309 --> 00:19:15,980 understand that system administrators are not just those people who administer 252 00:19:15,980 --> 00:19:21,950 one UNIX system or another. They are the people who administer systems. And 253 00:19:21,950 --> 00:19:27,919 the system that exists globally now is created by the interconnection of many 254 00:19:27,919 --> 00:19:36,049 individual systems. And we are all… or many of us are part of administering 255 00:19:36,049 --> 00:19:42,659 that system and have extraordinary power in a way that is really 256 00:19:42,659 --> 00:19:46,950 an order of magnitude different to the power industrial workers had 257 00:19:46,950 --> 00:19:52,469 back in the 20th century. And we can see that in the cases of the famous leaks 258 00:19:52,469 --> 00:19:56,489 that Wikileaks has done or the recent Edward Snowden revelations, 259 00:19:56,489 --> 00:20:01,320 it is possible now for even a single system administrator to have a very significant 260 00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:08,280 change to the… or rather apply a very significant constructive constraint 261 00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:12,749 to the behavior of these organizations. Not merely wrecking or disabling them, 262 00:20:12,749 --> 00:20:19,150 not merely going out on strikes to change a policy, but rather shifting 263 00:20:19,150 --> 00:20:24,419 an information apartheid system which we’re developing 264 00:20:24,419 --> 00:20:27,340 from those with extraordinary power and extraordinary information 265 00:20:27,340 --> 00:20:32,519 into the knowledge commons, where it can be used not only as a disciplining force, 266 00:20:32,519 --> 00:20:37,340 but it can be used to construct and understand the new world 267 00:20:37,340 --> 00:20:42,619 that we’re entering into. Now, Hayden, the former Director of the CIA and NSA, 268 00:20:42,619 --> 00:20:46,119 is terrified of this. In "Cypherpunks: [Freedom and the Future of the Internet]" 269 00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:54,179 we called for this directly last year. But to give you an interesting quote 270 00:20:54,179 --> 00:21:03,780 from Hayden, possibly following up on those words of mine and others: 271 00:21:03,780 --> 00:21:07,559 “We need to recruit from Snowden’s generation” says Hayden, “we need 272 00:21:07,559 --> 00:21:11,480 to recruit from this group because they have the skills that we require. 273 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:15,269 So the challenge is how to recruit this talent while also protecting ourselves 274 00:21:15,269 --> 00:21:21,179 from the small fraction of the population that has this romantic attachment 275 00:21:21,179 --> 00:21:25,850 to absolute transparency at all costs.” And that’s us, right? 276 00:21:25,850 --> 00:21:30,789 So, what we need to do is spread that message and 277 00:21:30,789 --> 00:21:34,499 go into all those organizations. In fact, deal with them. I’m not saying 278 00:21:34,499 --> 00:21:39,199 “Don’t join the CIA”. No, go and join the CIA! Go in there! 279 00:21:39,199 --> 00:21:45,529 Go into the ballpark and get the ball and bring it out, with the understanding, 280 00:21:45,529 --> 00:21:50,340 with the paranoia, that all those organizations will be infiltrated 281 00:21:50,340 --> 00:21:54,770 by this generation, by an ideology that is spread across the internet. 282 00:21:54,770 --> 00:21:58,850 And every young person is educated on the internet. There will be no person 283 00:21:58,850 --> 00:22:04,499 that has not been exposed to this ideology of transparency 284 00:22:04,499 --> 00:22:09,019 and understanding and wanting to keep the internet which we were born into free. 285 00:22:09,019 --> 00:22:14,830 This is the last free generation. The coming together of these 286 00:22:14,830 --> 00:22:20,289 systems of governments, the new information apartheid across the world, 287 00:22:20,289 --> 00:22:25,790 and linking it together such that none of us will be able to escape it. 288 00:22:25,790 --> 00:22:30,720 In just a decade. Our identities will be coupled to it, the information sharing 289 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:35,409 in such that none of us will be able to escape it. We are all becoming 290 00:22:35,409 --> 00:22:39,919 part of the state, whether we like it or not. So our only hope is to determine 291 00:22:39,919 --> 00:22:45,129 what sort of state it is that we are going to become part of. And we can do that 292 00:22:45,129 --> 00:22:51,420 by looking and being inspired by some of the actions that produced human rights 293 00:22:51,420 --> 00:22:55,191 and free education etc. by people recognizing that they were 294 00:22:55,191 --> 00:23:00,320 part of the state, recognizing their own power and taking concrete and robust 295 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:05,070 action to make sure they lived in the sort of society that they wanted to 296 00:23:05,070 --> 00:23:09,049 and not in a hell-hole dystopia. 297 00:23:09,049 --> 00:23:10,406 Sarah: Thank you! 298 00:23:10,406 --> 00:23:22,299 *applause* 299 00:23:22,299 --> 00:23:26,740 So basically all those poor people Jake just made identify themselves, you have 300 00:23:26,740 --> 00:23:31,549 the power to change more systems than the one you’re working on right now. 301 00:23:31,549 --> 00:23:34,809 And I think it’s time to take some questions because we don’t have long left. 302 00:23:34,809 --> 00:23:39,970 If there are any… I did… what’s the… 303 00:23:39,970 --> 00:23:43,040 Herald: If you do have questions please line up in the middle of the room. 304 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:46,309 We have microphones there. 305 00:23:46,309 --> 00:23:51,239 If you cannot reach one, please put your hand up and we’ll try to get one to you. 306 00:23:51,239 --> 00:23:54,800 Julian: While we wait for the first question I’d just like to say I’m not sure 307 00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:57,380 how many people are in there. It looks like that it’s quite a lot. 308 00:23:57,380 --> 00:23:59,230 Sarah: Start going to the mike, even while he’s talking, if you do have a question. 309 00:23:59,230 --> 00:24:01,959 Cause otherwise we won’t know that you have one, and we’ll just keep on going! 310 00:24:01,959 --> 00:24:05,499 Julian: It looks like there’s quite a … apologize … 311 00:24:05,499 --> 00:24:07,169 Herald: Alternatively just raise your hand, and we’ll try to go to you. 312 00:24:07,169 --> 00:24:08,929 Julian: It looks like there’s quite a lot of people there, 313 00:24:08,929 --> 00:24:13,100 but you should all know that due to the various sorts of proximity 314 00:24:13,100 --> 00:24:19,399 measures that are now employed by NSA, GCHQ and Five Eyes Alliance, 315 00:24:19,399 --> 00:24:23,070 if you’ve come there with a telephone, or if you have been even in Hamburg 316 00:24:23,070 --> 00:24:28,380 with a telephone, you are all now coupled to us. You are coupled to this event. 317 00:24:28,380 --> 00:24:32,820 You are coupled to this speech in an irrevocable way. And that is now true 318 00:24:32,820 --> 00:24:38,239 for many people. So either we have to take command 319 00:24:38,239 --> 00:24:42,019 of the position that we have, understand the position we have, understand 320 00:24:42,019 --> 00:24:47,460 that we are the last free people, and the last people essentially with an ability 321 00:24:47,460 --> 00:24:51,779 to act in this situation. Or we are the group 322 00:24:51,779 --> 00:24:57,549 that will be crushed because of this association. 323 00:24:57,549 --> 00:25:03,579 *applause* 324 00:25:03,579 --> 00:25:07,239 Herald: I’d say I think we have a question at the mike 4. 325 00:25:07,239 --> 00:25:12,709 Question: So you were talking about the sysadmins here. What about those people 326 00:25:12,709 --> 00:25:17,960 who are not sysadmins? Not only joining CIA and those companies, 327 00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:20,369 what else can we do? 328 00:25:20,369 --> 00:25:22,239 Sarah: Jake, do you want to have a go at that one? 329 00:25:22,239 --> 00:25:24,039 Jacob: Sure. *Skype end-connection sound* 330 00:25:24,039 --> 00:25:26,039 So this is a question of agency, right? Sarah: Good timing! 331 00:25:26,039 --> 00:25:30,710 It’s a question in which one has to ask very simply, what is it that you feel like 332 00:25:30,710 --> 00:25:34,440 you CAN do? And many people that are in this audience I’ve had this discussion 333 00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:39,559 with them. E.g. Edward Snowden did not save himself. I mean he obviously 334 00:25:39,559 --> 00:25:44,090 had some ideas, but Sarah e.g., not as a system administrator, but as someone 335 00:25:44,090 --> 00:25:48,610 who is willing to risk her person. She helped specifically 336 00:25:48,610 --> 00:25:52,209 for source protection, she took actions to protect him. So there are plenty 337 00:25:52,209 --> 00:25:56,309 of things that can be done. To give you some idea, as Edward Snowden’s 338 00:25:56,309 --> 00:25:59,850 still sitting in Russia now, there are things that can be done to help him 339 00:25:59,850 --> 00:26:03,799 even now. And there are things to show that, if we can succeed in saving Edward 340 00:26:03,799 --> 00:26:08,429 Snowden’s life and to keep him free, that the next Edward Snowden will have that 341 00:26:08,429 --> 00:26:12,830 to look forward to. And if we look also to what has happened to Chelsea Manning, 342 00:26:12,830 --> 00:26:18,440 we see additionally that Snowden has clearly learned. Just as Thomas Drake 343 00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:22,440 and Bill Binney set an example for every single person about what to do or 344 00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:27,009 what not to do. It’s not just about system administrators, it’s about all of us 345 00:26:27,009 --> 00:26:32,800 actually recognizing that positive contribution that each of us can make. 346 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:36,350 Herald: Okay. Our next question will be microphone 2, please. 347 00:26:36,350 --> 00:26:40,280 *applause* 348 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:45,340 Question: Hi Julian, I’m wondering, do you believe that transparency alone is enough 349 00:26:45,340 --> 00:26:53,490 to inject some form of conscience into ‘evil’ organizations, 350 00:26:53,490 --> 00:26:56,549 and if not, what do you believe the next step 351 00:26:56,549 --> 00:26:59,480 after transparency is? 352 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:03,529 Julian: It’s not about injecting conscience. It’s about providing 353 00:27:03,529 --> 00:27:08,939 two things: One, an effective deterrent to particular forms of behavior 354 00:27:08,939 --> 00:27:15,759 and two, finding that information which allows us to construct an order 355 00:27:15,759 --> 00:27:20,549 in the world around us, to educate ourselves in how the world works 356 00:27:20,549 --> 00:27:27,169 and therefore be able to manage the world that we are a part of. 357 00:27:27,169 --> 00:27:32,200 The restriction of information, the restriction of those bits of information 358 00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:36,590 colors it. It gives off an economic signal that that information is important 359 00:27:36,590 --> 00:27:39,909 when it’s released. Because otherwise why would you spend so much work 360 00:27:39,909 --> 00:27:44,729 in restricting it? So the people who know it best restrict it. We should take 361 00:27:44,729 --> 00:27:49,320 their measurement of that information as a guide and use that to pull it out 362 00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:54,549 where it can achieve some kind of reform. That in itself is not enough. 363 00:27:54,549 --> 00:28:00,860 It creates an intellectual commons which is part of our mutual education. 364 00:28:00,860 --> 00:28:06,940 But we need to understand – say, if we look at the Occupy event, 365 00:28:06,940 --> 00:28:13,289 a very interesting political event – where revelations and perhaps destabilization 366 00:28:13,289 --> 00:28:18,210 led to a mass, a very large group of people wanting to do something. 367 00:28:18,210 --> 00:28:22,989 However, there was no organizational scaffold for these people 368 00:28:22,989 --> 00:28:30,440 to attach themselves to, no nucleus for these people to crystallize onto. 369 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:37,049 And it is that problem, which is an endemic problem of the anarchist left, actually. 370 00:28:37,049 --> 00:28:43,269 The CCC. Why are we having this right now? Because the CCC is an organized structure. 371 00:28:43,269 --> 00:28:47,230 It’s a structure which has been able to grow, to accommodate the 30% 372 00:28:47,230 --> 00:28:53,289 of extra people that have occurred this year. To shift and change and act like 373 00:28:53,289 --> 00:28:57,309 one of the better workers’ universities that are around. 374 00:28:57,309 --> 00:29:02,779 So we have to form unions and networks 375 00:29:02,779 --> 00:29:07,159 and create programs and organizational structures. And those organizational 376 00:29:07,159 --> 00:29:14,009 structures can also be written in code. Bitcoin e.g. is an organizational structure 377 00:29:14,009 --> 00:29:20,680 that creates an intermediary between people and sets up rules between people. 378 00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:24,970 It may end up as a quite totalitarian system one day, who knows? But 379 00:29:24,970 --> 00:29:30,210 at the moment it provides some kind of balancing. So code and human structures 380 00:29:30,210 --> 00:29:34,340 do things. Wikileaks was able to rescue Edward Snowden because we are 381 00:29:34,340 --> 00:29:39,209 an organized institution with collective experience. 382 00:29:39,209 --> 00:29:41,200 Sarah: Okay, I think there’s one question left for me 383 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:43,250 that’s coming from the internet. 384 00:29:43,250 --> 00:29:46,320 Signal Angel: Yes, on IRC there was the question: What was the most difficult 385 00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:51,010 part on getting Snowden out of the U.S.? 386 00:29:51,010 --> 00:29:53,890 Jacob: Hah! * Julian laughs* 387 00:29:53,890 --> 00:29:55,659 Jacob: That’s quite a loaded question! 388 00:29:55,659 --> 00:29:59,820 Julian: Yeah, that’s interesting to think whether we can actually answer 389 00:29:59,820 --> 00:30:05,580 that question at all. I’ll give a variant of the answer because of the legal situation 390 00:30:05,580 --> 00:30:12,290 it is a little bit difficult. As some of you may know the U.K. Government has 391 00:30:12,290 --> 00:30:18,509 admitted to spending £6 million a year approximately surveilling this embassy, 392 00:30:18,509 --> 00:30:25,779 in the police forces alone. So you can imagine the difficulty in communicating 393 00:30:25,779 --> 00:30:30,909 with various people in different countries in relation to his diplomatic asylum and 394 00:30:30,909 --> 00:30:39,060 into logistics in Hong Kong in a situation like that. And the only reason we were 395 00:30:39,060 --> 00:30:44,549 able to succeed is because of extremely dilligent u… 396 00:30:44,549 --> 00:30:47,870 *video transmission freezes* *audience uneasy* 397 00:30:47,870 --> 00:30:50,179 Jacob: Perfectly timed! Sarah: And we didn’t use Skype! 398 00:30:50,179 --> 00:30:53,559 *laughs* *laughter* 399 00:30:53,559 --> 00:30:55,600 Jacob: Do we have time for one more question? 400 00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:58,949 Herald: I think we ran out of our time, I’m very sorry. 401 00:30:58,949 --> 00:31:01,610 Jacob: That was such a fantastic, perfect way to make sure that you didn’t learn 402 00:31:01,610 --> 00:31:03,550 the answer to that question! Sarah: Hehe, yeah! 403 00:31:03,550 --> 00:31:05,739 *laughter* 404 00:31:05,739 --> 00:31:13,910 *applause* 405 00:31:13,910 --> 00:31:15,630 Herald: Unfortunately that is all the time we have for this talk… 406 00:31:15,630 --> 00:31:16,980 *Skype sounds audible* *laughter* 407 00:31:16,980 --> 00:31:17,910 From audience: …he wants to say goodbye! 408 00:31:17,910 --> 00:31:24,900 Herald: …but I want you all, to still (?) thank you: Jake Appelbaum! Thank you. 409 00:31:24,900 --> 00:31:28,250 *applause* I’m very sorry… 410 00:31:28,250 --> 00:31:30,530 *silent postroll titles* 411 00:31:30,530 --> 00:31:37,226 *subtitles created by c3subtitles.de in the year 2017. Join, and help us!*